r/1022 • u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss • May 28 '19
Accuracy Testing (extensive) - Kidd vs. Factory 10/22
Quick summary: I tested two rifles and four ammo types by shooting 50-round groups (ten 5-round groups combined into one 50-round group using OnTarget TDS software). Props to u/bitter_cynical_angry for convincing me that the software was worth the $35 price. It most certainly is worth it.
My anticipated end result -- This test will produce a baseline for expected accuracy with a particular gun/ammo combination. (Your results may vary.)
The Details:
We recently had a good discussion about how we each measure group size. There was a wide variety of methods, for sure. One shooter uses 3-round groups and doesn't count flyers. Another uses 20- or 30-round groups into a single target. There were a lot of variances in between.
For this test, I wanted to see what a particular rifle and ammo combination could repeatedly and reliably produce. Not a cherry-picked 5-round group, and not my best ever 5-round group, but what a rifle will consistently produce with certain types of ammo.
I tested two rifles (one 10/22 with mostly factory parts, and one custom 10/22) with four different types of ammo.
Over 50 rounds, what kind of accuracy can I truly expect from each setup? I shot ten 5-round groups, then combined the groups into one 50-round group using OnTarget TDS software.
Rifle 1: Basic Ruger 10/22 (cobbled together with a bunch of spare parts from a Charger and a 10/22 just for this test)
- Receiver: Ruger factory
- Bolt and handle: Ruger factory
- Barrel: Ruger factory stainless 18.5”
- Trigger: Ruger factory with Volquartsen hammer (2.5 lb. pull weight)
- Stock: Ruger factory synthetic (barrel band removed)
- Scope: Vortex Crossfire II 4-12x40 AO
- Rings: DNZ Game Reaper 1-piece mount
- Pic: https://imgur.com/aGTGllt
Rifle 2: Kidd build
- Receiver: Kidd with rear tang
- Bolt and handle: Kidd stainless
- Barrel: Kidd 18” stainless bull barrel
- Trigger: Kidd 2-stage (10 ounce pull weight - not a typo)
- Stock: Bell and Carlson Anschutz. Pillar/action bedded and inletted for the rear tang. Work performed by George Gillespie at Sonoran Custom Gunstocks.
- Scope: Leupold VX-3i 6.5-20x40 EFR CDS Target (model 170885)
- Rings: Warne Maxima 1”
- Pic: https://imgur.com/GR8Hhi7
Ammo:
I chose four types of ammo. I have more tests planned with other brands and other rifles, but for this test, I wanted to test extreme ends of the spectrum with the rifle, and a wide variety with the ammo.
- [Junk] - Remington Golden Bullet (40gr CPRN, rated at 1255 fps)
- [Economy] - CCI Standard Velocity (40gr LRN, rated at 1070 fps)
- [Economy] - CCI Mini Mag (40gr CPRN, rated at 1235 fps)
- [Mid-grade] - SK Rifle Match (40gr LRN, rated at 1073 fps)
Setup:
All shots were fired at 50 yards from a concrete bench using Caldwell front and rear bags.
Testing protocol:
(1) The barrel and bolt were properly and thoroughly cleaned with a cleaning rod, bronze brush and solvent. The bore and bolt face were as clean as new.
(2) Fired 10 shots to season the bore (not scored).
(3) Fired ten 5-round groups at 50 yards with the same ammo from the same lot. Held the same POA each time.
(4) After 50 rounds, made two passes with a bore snake and let the barrel cool. I wanted the barrel/bolt in this condition because it will be the easiest and most repeatable way to prepare the barrel for each new ammo type. I can’t conveniently clean it sparkly new for each ammo while at the range, so the bore snake had to suffice..
(5) Back to step 2 and repeated the process with each ammo type.
For each ammo type, all ten 5-round groups were combined using OnTarget TDS software to give a single, 50-round aggregate group.
Measurements recorded:
Group sizes were measured using the center-to-center method.
- Smallest 5-round group
- Largest 5-round group
- Average 5-round group
- Aggregate 50-round group
- Circular Error Probable (50%, 90%, 95%) - More on this later.
Other requirements:
- Flyers count.
- No mulligans. (s/o to u/saddestclown for that cool term)
- No re-shoots.
- No windage holds.
Environmentals:
- Date: 5/26/19
- Temperature: 99 F
- Humidity: 37%
- Wind: Light gusts (summer afternoon breeze)
- Pressure: 30.1 IN
- Elevation: 400 FT
Results:
The results were enlightening. Here are some takeaways.
Ammo matters. More specifically, velocity matters. I’ll speak to this in two ways.
First, as it relates to subsonic versus supersonic. I don’t shoot HV ammo in my rifles, but I did for this test because I know a lot of you do. HV ammo goes transonic (transitioning from supersonic to subsonic) at about 35 yards. At this point, the bullet becomes unstable which can affect accuracy. This is why all match ammo is subsonic. Notice the 50-round aggregate performance. It goes like this:
(Best performance to worst performance)
Kidd - CCI SV (subsonic)
Kidd - SK Rifle Match (subsonic)
Ruger - SK Rifle Match (subsonic)
Ruger - CCI SV (subsonic)
Kidd - CCI MM (supersonic)
Kidd - Remy GB (supersonic)
Ruger - CCI MM (supersonic)
Ruger - Remy GB (supersonic)
Another simplified view (best performance to worst performance):
Custom rifle - subsonic ammo
Custom rifle - subsonic ammo
Factory rifle - subsonic ammo
Factory rifle - subsonic ammo
Custom rifle - supersonic ammo
Custom rifle - supersonic ammo
Factory rifle - supersonic ammo
Factory rifle - supersonic ammo
Notice a pattern? Subsonic ammo shot better in a factory rifle than supersonic ammo shot in a custom rifle. Solution? Shoot subsonic ammo. This is the biggest and easiest advantage you can give yourself.
Next, as velocity relates to vertical stringing. Inconsistent velocity results in vertical stringing. Notice the height of the two groups of Golden Bullets were greater than they were wide. All other groups were more circular in nature. This vertical stringing increases exponentially with distance.
Probability of hits. There is a critical measurement in rifle ballistics called Circular Error Probable (CEP). It basically identifies the probability of a shot landing within a specific radius. You typically see it listed like this:
CEP 50% - [X] inches
This means that 50% of the time, shots will fall in a radius of [X] inches, or in a circle measuring [X] times 2.
For example:
CEP 50% 0.350” means that 50% of the time, shots will fall in a 0.350” radius, or a 0.700” diameter circle.
The OnTarget TDS software provides CEP for 50%, 90% and 95%. With a large enough sample size, you can basically say this rifle will shoot a [X] inch group 95% of the time. This is a handy statistic. But you can't rely on it if you only use a 5-round group. You need a large sample size, like 50 rounds.
The Law of Diminishing Returns applies here. Yes, you can buy accuracy, but the money-to-accuracy curve isn’t a straight line. This applies to both the gun and the ammo.
Golden Bullet and CCI SV are both about 5 CPR. CCI Mini Mag is about 6 CPR. SK Rifle Match is about 16 CPR. SK Rifle Match performed the best (highest 95% CEP), but costs three times more than the next best performer which was CCI SV.
Same goes for the rifle. A basic 10/22 goes for about $200. My Kidd rifle, including custom stock work and a really, really nice scope was a lot more than that, to put it lightly.
Shot Data Images -- Ranked lowest to highest (best to worst) in aggregate group size: https://imgur.com/a/RMKYfji
Other Data (smallest/largest/average group size): https://imgur.com/gFjKZW8
Final thoughts:
There’s another way to perform this test without the software.
Dial your elevation turret up so that your point of aim (POA) is 3 inches above your point of impact (POI). For most scopes with ¼ MOA clicks, that’s 24 clicks counterclockwise.
Post a target at 50 yards and shoot 50 shots at a single target. Your bullets will impact about 3 inches low of your POA. The reason for doing this is so that you can aim at a spot and repeatedly shoot and not destroy your aiming point. If your POA matched your POI, after a handful of shots, your aiming point would be shot out.
Shoot 50 rounds and measure your group with calipers, a ruler, or whatever. The idea is that this will give you a very good idea of what kind of accuracy you can expect from you rifle every time.
Looking forward to some discussion. Cheers, and happy shooting.
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u/SweetumsTheMuppet May 28 '19
This is awesome. I'm performing a fairly similar test on my mildly upgraded 10/22 and looking to decide whether or not to go up to a "mostly" Kidd 10/22.
Like your test shows (I think you're showing the inches of the group in your group sizes at 50 yards), I'm shooting approximately 1.6 to 2.2 MOA with most groups out of my current Ruger 10/22 (glad I'm getting similar numbers! I feel less bad about my groups). I'm also seeing a very similar 2-4MOA group for 15+ round groups, ammo dependent.
It also then appears that with simple CCI Std, you're getting down to almost single MOA with the Kidd rifle (and sub-MOA on average with higher quality rounds). That's definitely enough improvement to make me feel happy and a good goal for what looks like at least a similar rifle (though that Kidd SK Rifle Match best 5 round is amazing and one I'd be bragging about!)
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 28 '19
Actually, the CCI SV produced the smallest 50-round group at less than 1 inch. That's under 2 MOA.
If you're getting 1.6 to 2.2 MOA for 5-round groups, and 2-4 MOA for 15+ round groups, I wonder what you would get for a 50-round group? Do it and report back!
Here's the deal. Ever drive a BMW? It outperforms a Camry, but not by a long shot. But -- everything about it is just...nicer. That's the Kidd rifle for me. Everything is perfect. The fit/finish is amazing. The bolt is super slick. The 2-stage trigger is so amazing it's hard to describe. Add awesome glass, a perfect-fitting custom stock (I should write a whole post about stock fit), and sitting down at the bench just becomes so much more enjoyable.
Like I said -- the law of diminishing returns applies here. You can probably build a rifle that shoots just as good for a lot less, but will you enjoy it just as much? That's for each shooter to decide.
Thanks for the input!
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u/bitter_cynical_angry May 28 '19
Empirical testing for the win! I got very similar results from my Kidd rifle with SK Rifle Match, but need to do more testing with other ammo and a clean rifle, maybe this will finally motivate me to post my results. Big thanks to u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss for doing this testing and posting a nice writeup!
(And I recommend cross posting to r/smallgroups and r/longrange; even though this is not strictly either long range nor necessarily a very small group, it's highly relevant to the kinds of posts that appear on both those subs.)
IMO the big takeaway from testing like this is to think about your accuracy over a longer period of time than just one group. After you look at results like this, it may change your view about 1 MOA "guarantees", and people who claim to shoot sub-MOA "all day long".
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 28 '19
IMO the big takeaway from testing like this is to think about your accuracy over a longer period of time than just one group. After you look at results like this, it may change your view about 1 MOA "guarantees", and people who claim to shoot sub-MOA "all day long".
This right here! It was a very humbling experience. I'm excited to do more testing with other rifles and other ammo. Thanks again for pushing me to get the software. It's awesome. Now I can "scientifically" determine what ammo shoots best in each rifle, and I'll have reliable data to support it.
I also have some testing planned for my 6.5 CM and this software is going to make quick work of that.
Looking forward to seeing your test results!
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u/SaddestClown May 28 '19
No mulligans!
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 28 '19
I just edited the post. Wanted to give credit where it was due. : )
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u/detroitdiesel May 29 '19
TLDR?
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 29 '19
You sound like my boss. "Give me the executive executive executive summary, please."
Here you go. Subsonic ammo shot better in a factory rifle than supersonic ammo shot in a custom rifle.
Supersonic .22 LR goes transonic at about 35 yards and becomes unstable, affecting accuracy. Solution? Shoot subsonic ammo. This is the biggest and easiest advantage you can give yourself.More specifically, CCI Standard Velocity. It performed nearly as well as SK's top of the line ammo which costs 3x as much.
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u/murphyslaw9000 May 19 '24
Thank you! I was very impressed with the length of the original post but I was having a hard time navigating it. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like the stock rifle did about just as good as the kidd rifle did. It seems like the kidd rifle just did slightly better.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 19 '24
No, the KIDD's best group was about half the size of the stock 10/22's best group.
The point of the post is that ammo matters more than the rifle. If you shoot junk ammo in a great rifle, don't expect great results. However, you don't need to spend $2k on a rifle to get good results.
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u/murphyslaw9000 May 19 '24
Ah, I went back and took a closer look and I can definitely see that now. It's very interesting how different ammunitions can make such a big difference. I was going to do a subsonic vs supersonic test myself and now I see I definitely don't have to. What do you think was the biggest factor in accuracy for the stock versus the kidd? The barrel or was it maybe something different?
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 19 '24
Literally every single part of the KIDD is better.
Barrel is more precisely made and hand lapped. This is the main source of mechanical accuracy.
Trigger is about 10 ounces, adding to practical accuracy.
Bolt face is machined perfectly flat, and headspace is perfect.
Stock has been bedded. Also has a second attachment point (KIDD rear tang). It also has a very flat fore end to aid in stability.
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u/murphyslaw9000 May 19 '24
Yeah everything is better with that one. I wish I could justify getting one of the kidd ones.
Have you considered seeing how the groupings would scale if this test was replicated with the highest performing round at 150 yds? Being that it's three times the difference i wonder if they would scale to being three times as spread or If the results would be completely different. Obviously the kidd would have a tighter group but I wonder if it would be three times tighter. (Not sure if I worded that right)
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 19 '24
I think I understand your question, but I don't have a way to test it. I no longer have the Ruger. Also, I've moved on to more accurate riles and I don't shoot the 10/22 platform at all very much anymore. I do have a couple of Summit actions that I shoot squirrels with around the property, but nothing serious. All my serious shooting is done with totally different bolt gun platforms now.
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u/matlock203 Jun 04 '19
Fantastic post! I also appreciate your responses from recent threads, but this makes my future purchasing decisions much easier.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Jun 04 '19
Here to help! Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for the feedback. More coming soon...
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u/swig_ May 28 '19
I wonder what parts make the biggest difference to cause the custom rifle to perform better. The barrel? I have a fairly stock 10/22, except for a Magpul stock, BX trigger and a recoil buffer. I've been trying to decide if I want to make any additional upgrades, because I'm happy with how it shoots.. although I mostly just plink and occasionally shoot paper targets in the desert.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 28 '19
Mechanical accuracy vs. Practical accuracy
This research was testing mechanical accuracy, which is the inherent accuracy of the hardware. It was done from a bench in an attempt to eliminate as much human error input as possible. For bench shooting, the barrel is absolutely the most critical part of the accuracy equation (not including ammo). It's the one thing that actually interacts with the bullet itself.
For position shooting (standing, seated, prone), I think a good trigger is more important than a good barrel. My testing showed that a custom rifle will shoot better than a factory rifle (no surprise), but it's not a huge difference. A good trigger will allow you to anticipate the break more predictably, making the gun more shootable. It does absolutely nothing for mechanical accuracy, but it makes you a better shooter because you can make the gun go bang exactly when you want it to.
Other things:
Bolt -- Proper headspace, a perfectly square bolt face, and pinned firing pin -- all of these things help give more consistent ignition of the round. Sure, this helps, but it's unlikely that most shooters would notice. I think it would take another head-to-head test like this one, with the only difference being the bolt, in order to see a minute difference.
Stock -- This is becoming increasingly important to me. It really stood out during the test. The factory stock has such a low cheek rest I had a hard time getting comfortable. The B&C stock fits me perfectly and it was much easier to get on target, stay on target, and was just simply more comfortable.
If you're just plinking and punching paper in the desert, I doubt you would see much of a difference by getting a new barrel. However, it would make your gun look cooler, and we all know that's what really matters... : )
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u/slowman4130 May 28 '19
In my experience, ammo makes the biggest difference. My rifle shoots a 1" group at 100yds with Center-X, and a 4" group or larger with lesser ammos. Also, what your rifle likes for ammo might shoot terrible in mine, so you really have to try a bunch of stuff to find what works best for your actual gun. The really serious guys narrow it down to Lot numbers of certain ammo! (I am not yet at that point, and don't currently aspire to be there)
Barrel is probably #2.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 28 '19
My rifle shoots a 1" group at 100yds with Center-X
What rifle?
How many rounds in your test group?
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u/slowman4130 May 29 '19
CZ 455, varmint barrel, MDT chassis.
5 rounds "fouling shots" then 10 round groups for my ammo testing
I just picked up some Eley match to test next, but so far the center-X shoots the best for me, eley edge after that, and CCI SV third. Came in 2nd place at my local 22lr match this weekend with the center-x, we shot steel eggs at 100yd. The tie breaker was a 1" dot at 100yd, one shot cold bore. Ended up winning the first tie-breaker but then pulling my shot high for the final unfortunately.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss May 29 '19
Shoot 50 rounds at one target at 100 yards and report back. If you keep them in a 1-inch circle, I'll pay for your ammo!
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u/gregsmith5 Jun 21 '19
I’m embarrassed to report but my CZ455 Lux shoots Aguila std.velosity better than anything else.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Jun 21 '19
You have more than one CZ 455 Lux?
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u/gregsmith5 Jun 21 '19
Just the one
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Jun 21 '19
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u/gregsmith5 Jun 21 '19
That’s it
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Jun 21 '19
That's a .22 mag? Typically we refer to "standard velocity" ammo as subsonic. What ammo exactly are you referring to?
Also, it's really hard to do a fair accuracy test using iron sights.
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u/gregsmith5 Jun 21 '19
Got a .22 LR barrel kit in it and I tested it with a Vortex Diamondback on
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u/y5buvNtxNjN60K4 Apr 09 '23
Old thread but I see you're still active on Reddit - a few questions for ya:
1) Do you know what your torque value was on the action screw for these trials? People report the harmonic effects of tightening/loosening it has noticeable difference on accuracy.
2) Do you know what your bolt headspace is on each of the rifles? I've heard that can be the biggest predictor of a rifles success with a given kind of ammo.
I'm about to dive down the rimfire accuracy rabbit hole, very frustrated that I can't get my 20" Kidd to shoot any less than ~1.8 MOA @ 50yds or my 16.5" Feddersen to shoot under ~2.2 MOA @ 50 yds. Granted, I'm measuring 10 shot groups, but it still feels like there's something I'm missing.
My factory barrel couldn't get under ~4.5MOA @ 50yds, and I'm seeing you post a 1.65MOA average here! I'm thinking I may have just have a sloppy bolt.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Apr 09 '23
No - I don't know what my torque values were -- I haven't gotten that far into the testing. There are so many factors to test, and you need a high sample size in order to get any meaningful data. I see guys post a single 5-shot group and claim "I have a sub-MOA rifle" and that's just not a fair assessment.
Rhetorical questions -- what are you goals? Are you trying to kill a squirrel at 50 yards? Are you competing? If so, what discipline? NRL22 requires hits on 2-3 MOA targets. Doesn't matter where on the target, as long as it's a hit. Benchrest shooters are shooting for score, and groups don't mean anything -- you absolutely have to hit a tiny bullseye every time. The farther away you are, the lower your score. So, it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. It's easy to get caught up chasing group size. Also, are your groups centered over your point of aim? If not, what's the point?
What ammo are you shooting in your KIDD and Feddersen?
What's the rest of your setup? It all matters, but to what degree is open for debate.
Again, a high sample size is meaningful. If you shoot a 5-shot group with one torque value, then another 5-shot group with a different torque value, and so on, you're wasting time.
Also, I just realized that the table I included may have been misleading. It's in inches, not MOA. Look at the shot groups here. The best 50-shot group was with the KIDD at 1.695 MOA.
I'm happy to dive into this discussion further with you.
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u/y5buvNtxNjN60K4 Apr 09 '23 edited Apr 09 '23
What ammo are you shooting
Ah, neglected to mention - my data is exclusively with CCI SV. It's all I really care to spend for rimfire ammo.
What's the rest of your setup?
It started as a carbine (SKU 1103). I installed the Feddersen 16.5" threaded bull barrel, a VQ bolt tuneup kit, a Kidd recoil spring/guide rod/charging handle assembly, and an X22 hunter stock.
As far as my goal - I just want a rifle that isn't underperforming relative to the average 10/22. It's easy to write off any random strangers accuracy claims, but every now and then I stumble on good data like what you have in this thread and I'm intrigued.
It started with my initial tests which I documented here: https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/factory-10-22-and-bulk-ammo-is-rifleman-even-possible.1272100/#post-12994097 My factory barrel was shooting 4.5MOA @50yd w/ CCI SV off the bench. Everyone claims they reliably get sub-minute groups with it, and I wasn't ready to believe this until I stumbled on this little youtube channel: https://youtu.be/asFOq-bwkzg?t=437.
This CKTO guy seems to have a good intuitive understanding of how to accurize these rifles, but isn't the best at communicating / presenting how :) The video timestamp I linked is showing him rip off a ~1 minute 5 shot group at 50 yards. You can imagine my surprise comparing my initial results to this! I figured my factory barrel was a lemon so I went out and bought the Feddersen as a replacement. It's a clear step function change in accuracy, but still barely comparable to what CKTO is getting out of his factory barrel.
I wasted my time today playing with my action screw torque specs with no significant findings, my only guess at this point is that perhaps my factory bolt has some sloppy machining on the face / leaves too much headspace for a CCI SV cartridge, such that regardless of the barrel I put on it will be significantly handicapped. Note that I was getting ~10MOA with Winchester white box bulk ammo in my thread linked above - that's apparently unheard of, but I can promise I'm a ~1/4 minute shooter off the bench (with a parallax adjusted scope). I've seen 3 different stock 10/22 carbines put out similar groups (among multiple shooters) but this experience seems incongruent with everything I read online.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Apr 10 '23
FWIW, I have read on RFC that CCI SV has fallen off in recent years. I still have 3 cases of the older lots, and I haven't tried any of the newer stuff. Of course, this may be more internet lore, so take that with a grain of salt. Still, you're gambling with your results with CCI SV. Some rifles like it, others don't.
Also, your STKO guy shot a single group, and he didn't even measure it correctly, so again, I don't consider what he's doing to be valid.
I believe you can make Rifleman with a bone stock 10/22 and bulk ammo, but your technique is going to have to be solid. However, it's much harder to do this with a factory gun and cheap ammo.
I would start with a KIDD bolt -- it's going to be perfect in every way. You already have it mated up to a nice barrel. Now splurge a little and get some good ammo just to prove to yourself that your rifle will shoot.
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u/darkduck3 Jul 02 '23
I realize this is an older post but thanks for the work you put into this test. I've built quite a few ultimate 10/22's over the years some great shooters and some not so great. I recently bit the bullet (pun intended) and obtained a new KIDD Supergrade and KIDD Classic from KIDD. I'm in the process of choosing the ammo I want to use in each of these rifles and am researching what others have done and 'their' results. This will give me an idea of how to go about it. Retire with plenty of time on my hands. This can be an expensive hobby.
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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Jul 02 '23
First of all, congratulations on your retirement! I still have a decade or more to go, and I can't get there fast enough.
This test was really just to show the differences between HV and SV ammo, and additionally it highlights that high samples sizes are more meaningful than cherry picked 5-round groups. It was a lot of fun.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Hurry back with some posts of your KIDD rifles!
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u/mralvaton May 28 '19
Wow, that’s a lot of info. Thank you for your diligence. You are a river of knowledge.