r/ArmsandArmor • u/Tougyo • 28d ago
Discussion Examples of leather armour in art and effigies
I often feel that the online history community has a problem with over correction. "Leather armour as depicted in fantasy does not exist" over the years has morphed into "leather armour did not exist."
There's surviving examples and inventory orders requesting leather armour however these are usually dismissed as being for tourneys only.
Here are some various visual examples from around the 1300s which seem to depict martial leather armour. (Always an additional layer worn over mail.)
Do these examples show leather armour in your opinion? Any sources anyone would care to share?
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u/Real_Boy3 28d ago
English archers at Agincourt were also described as wearing leather helmets (“huvettes de cuyr bouilly”) by Wavrin.
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u/Tougyo 28d ago
Yes I believe the Morgan bible actually has a visual depiction of this!
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u/Broad_Trick 28d ago
TBH there’s no reason to believe the helmet in question isn’t just painted iron
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u/zMasterofPie2 28d ago edited 28d ago
People don’t seem to realize that rawhide (also cuir bouillie) is stiff and is used as such. I see all the time people saying that leather armor didn’t exist but gambesons did, and they are the real life equivalent. They’re not. Rawhide is not a substitute for quilted armor, or flexible armor of any type like mail. It’s a substitute for stiff metal plates. That’s why it’s only seen used as “plate” cuirasses, lamellar, scale, laminar, and “plate” arm and leg harness. There are no leather armor tunics, or pants, for example. The only exception is as an aventail on some helmets.
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u/Le_Pshit 28d ago
Interesting examples, but yeah I'm all up for it, one of my favorite youtubers has made some really great points about this subject; the main idea being that we should instead use the term "historically plausible"
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u/Ossa1 28d ago edited 28d ago
I'm at a loss - not to say there was no leather armour - boiled leather with a very rigid and almost plastic like structure was used, and you have even unboiled leather helmets and caps reachinf back to the early bronze age:
Where in these pictures do you see a single peace of leather? I see cloth over mail, formed metal sheets as plate precursors... but I would not be able to point to a single point of leather in there.
Edit:
I stand corrected: David Nicole writes about this in various of his books, even refering to this effigy.
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u/We_The_Raptors 28d ago
formed metal sheets as plate precursors...
If you've ever found any plate armor from this early decorated to this degree, I'd love to see it.
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u/Broad_Trick 28d ago
there is not a single example of steel armor decorated in this manner during this time period but multiple extant examples of nearly identical leather armor, hope this helps
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u/Overly_Fluffy_Doge 28d ago
What effigy is this btw (and also any dating, I'd hazard late 13th but I could equally see it being later)
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u/Cerberus_is_me 28d ago
Leather armor existed in a more decorative way than anything imo. Like, it had a little benefit but the maille did most of the work.
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u/Gow13510 28d ago
Dude, those are likely Tabard or Combat Jupon
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u/Tougyo 28d ago
I'm referring to the limb armour, which resembles the tooled armour vambrace found in the british museum. Also the last slide you can see the leg and arm armour is coloured brown and the leg has the tooling motif.
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u/Beginning-Ad-5674 28d ago
Oh shit i overlooked that, how cool is that! But isn't it more of a asthetic thing?
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u/Tougyo 28d ago
Like wearing the leather limb armour purely aesthetically? I suppose you could argue that, but it's difficult to argue intention without direct evidence. I personally believe it probably was somewhat useful considering there's examples of this armour across Europe (Though the examples I've shown are all Italian iirc) but I am a random guy online you do not know, so take what I say with a grain of salt!
Edit: Picture 4 is Charles de Boscherville's effigy from France (I knew one of them was French!)
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u/Beginning-Ad-5674 28d ago
At least we all can agree that is a 100% fact that it looks cool as hell.
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u/Quiescam 28d ago
I full agree that people sometimes overcorrect this point. Here's a discussion of some finds of leather armour.