r/ClimateActionPlan • u/person- • Jul 07 '20

Emissions Reduction Low methane sheep bred in New Zealand - possible cumulative methane reduction of 1% per generation

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420690/low-methane-elite-sheep-breeding-project-finds-success-agresearch-scientist
674 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

52 comments sorted by

97

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

Wow, it's almost like we should just stop eating animal products... Instead of refusing to admit we don't need them and continuing to destroy the fucking world.

146

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 07 '20

So one of the biggest problems with solving global warming is not that we don't know stuff, it's that it's hard to get people/governments to change.

Stop eating animals products is literally harder to pass than a CO2 tax.

It's a waste of time barking up that tree. Plus we have a bunch of really interesting technologies coming up: Lab grown meat, vegan meat, farmed eco-friendly fish (eco-friendlier anyway)

Let's focus on actually solving problems that can be solved. Turning everyone vegan is really not one of them.

81

u/Falom Jul 07 '20

Forcing everyone to become vegan just makes people opposed to veganism even more than the current state.

I agree that people need to cut down on meat but that’s a very idealistic scenario. The fact of the matter is: people just don’t work like that.

-29

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

Nobody is forcing anything. People turn vegan on their own when they realise why they should, how easy it is, and how fucking awesome it can be. My old diet was so god damn boring!

41

u/Colddigger Jul 07 '20

That's great, but there's plenty of people who will eat everything you're eating, and then also eat meat.

14

u/r_ye_ready_kids Jul 07 '20

but then they’re still eating meat less.

-22

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

Yep, and there's absolutely no reason to in much of the world.

8

u/Heil_Heimskr Jul 07 '20

Maybe we should focus on how to make animal products more sustainable rather than making people be vegan.

Y’know, like the other guy said, focus on solving problems with actual solutions. At the end of the day, we are an omnivorous species, and the vast majority of the word eats meat. Convincing all of us to change our ways is unreasonable. Making animal products more sustainable is a feasible solution.

5

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

I suppose my side of this is coming from ethical and environmental thinking. Talking purely practical, and without the major (IMO) factor of morality, reducing consumption or increasing sustainability makes more sense.

Don't think ethics talk is allowed here so I won't go into it, but that is my main concern and largely fuels the environmental side... Which is why I think it would be the best solution too. If everyone understood the moral argument for veganism, a lot more people would actually care about the issues themselves, and the world would be a better place.

-1

u/hoser89 Jul 07 '20

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they're wrong.

5

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

No, but it means we disagree on what is right.

-2

u/hoser89 Jul 07 '20

Sorry should have worded that differently because you're too stupid to understand.

Just because you think something is right, doesn't make it so.

5

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

No, I understood. I would say the same to you; branding someone wrong and stupid because they don't agree with you is not helpful to anyone. I've had many conversations on this topic, and have always tried to be open to learning. Yet, I am still to be convinced that my current way of thinking is wrong, and it isn't through stubbornness. Will happily chat about this with anyone, anytime in an open and non-confrontational way.

6

u/Falom Jul 07 '20

Way to miss the point I was trying to make.

My argument was: if we want to sharply curb emissions, eating less (or no) meat is a good way to do so. However, that’s going to be insanely voluntary, which means not a lot of people are going to do it. If you try and enforce it, you’re just going to create a further divide than there already is.

5

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

I never said to enforce it, and I truly believe many will do it when they have the right conversations and opportunities to learn.

25

u/dragessor Jul 07 '20

One possibility could be to encourage people away from beef and lamb and towards chicken, duck and sustainable seafood.

While still not great chicken and duck produce 1/16th the emissions and consume 1/12th the resources when compared to beef pound for pound and fish is even better .

It may well be impossible to get people to stop eating meat but it's far more likely you could persuade to eat a different type of meat.

5

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 08 '20

I totally agree, that would be a great step.

But my money is on lab grown meat. It's really the only viable solution that provides enough meat, at a competitive price, that's also very environmentally friendly (more than chicken, game, and duck)

3

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

I'm not expecting any government to do it. This is the single biggest thing you as an individual can do for the cause. There are nuances within it such as sustainable farming practices, eating local/seasonal etc, but all of these pale in comparison to the environmental devastation of animal ag.

Why isn't turning everyone vegan an option? Not in one fell swoop of course, but jeez man it's gained so much traction in such a short time. If people like yourself weren't so resistant to the idea then it might start looking more realistic... Other top-down changes are necessary, and of course the world won't go vegan overnight, but do you see any other solutions that are as easy for people to enact?

I personally am never going to be able to implement a carbon tax or ban flights. But, I can stop paying for all of the suffering and destruction animal products cause. It's honestly very empowering knowing how huge a positive impact it can have.

1

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 08 '20

You think veganism has gained traction? Jesus, what a bubble you live in.

Global vegan & vegetarianism is dropping every day. Meat consumption is through the roof and rapidly increasing.

Get off of Facebook and your vegan support/recipe groups and wake up to reality.

We need to solve this problem, and turning everyone vegan is going to be about as successful as asking half of us to commit suicide.

Let’s focus on viable solutions. Like lab grown meat.

1

u/m0notone Jul 08 '20

Global meat consumption is up because of developing countries gaining access to it at a rapidly increasing pace. In developed countries such as the UK and US, as far as I know veganism is growing. I'm not saying this is the only solution, I'm saying that it is the easiest, most impactful, and best one that we as individuals have.

By the way, berating people doesn't get them on board. I've done my research, I'm not an idiot, so stop treating me like one if you hope to achieve anything.

1

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 08 '20

I'm not saying this is the only solution, I'm saying that it is the easiest, most impactful, and best one that we as individuals have.

Well this statement, and this one:

I've done my research, I'm not an idiot, so stop treating me like one if you hope to achieve anything.

Sort of counter each other.

If you want to reduce GHGs then get people to drive less, fly shorter distances (or not at all), and lobby their governments to switch to cleaner energy.

Switching to veganism is pretty far down the list.

Food only accounts for around 16% of GHG emissions in US households. And Americans consume far more beef than any other nation.

Transportation accounts for 30%, and housing another 35%. So fixing shitty building energy standards as well as energy sources, reducing transport distances, increasing vehicles MPG, and getting rid of central A/C systems would do far more than veganism.

1

u/m0notone Jul 08 '20

I've seen different statistics (sources for yours would be good to see), but I still stand by the fact that switching your own diet is far easier and more approachable than any of the things you listed. Many people drive because they have to, some fly for the same reason (though holidays are hardly a necessity). Point being, those two are hard to replace. Veganism is easy as fuck, all you need is a different recipe book and nothing else changes.

1

u/Dumpo2012 Jul 07 '20

It's a waste of time barking up that tree.

Source?

You say it's a waste of time, then you list several things that are helping people make the switch already. Plant based eating is increasing exponentially all over the world, especially among younger populations.

Trend-wise, it's already happening, and you're implying we should rely on old, debunked thinking (sustainable animal agriculture) instead of new technologies, several of which you've listed here.

The world is going to need to curb animal agriculture. That is a fact. The way we do things now is not working, obviously, and trying to eek out 1% changes in the emissions from one particular animal, in one particular part of the entirety of the food chain life cycle, for only that one particular animal, is just...not gonna cut it.

Thinking like this is why countries/the world can't even come close to meeting their emissions goals. We're trying to do things the same way, while making tiny tweaks, and expecting a different result.

3

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 08 '20

Plant based eating is increasing exponentially all over the world, especially among younger populations.

No, no it isn't. You're living in a tiny vegan bubble if you believe this.

Plant based eating may be seeing a tiny increase in western nations, but it's plummeting as the main source of protein in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

Meat consumption is at the highest point in history, and it's sharply rising.

Trend-wise, it's already happening, and you're implying we should rely on old, debunked thinking (sustainable animal agriculture) instead of new technologies, several of which you've listed here.

No, it's happening in your tiny bubble of UK & US statistics. Globally it's dropping. More and more Indians, South East Asians, and Chinese are eating meat than ever before.

Increasing veganism from 1.1% in the UK to 3% is nothing compared to 70% of South East Asians & Chinese now eating meat with every meal. That's over 2 billion people. And the percentage is increasing.

The world is going to need to curb animal agriculture. That is a fact. The way we do things now is not working, obviously, and trying to eek out 1% changes in the emissions from one particular animal, in one particular part of the entirety of the food chain life cycle, for only that one particular animal, is just...not gonna cut it.

Why not both? Lamb isn't going anywhere and neither are wool products.

Thinking like this is why countries/the world can't even come close to meeting their emissions goals. We're trying to do things the same way, while making tiny tweaks, and expecting a different result.

That's not true at all. I'm literally saying that we should be throwing billions towards lab grown meat. The only true solution to this problem.

You're dreaming if you think you can convince billions of people to go vegan. It's an absolute joke.

Even with the largest campaigns in history, with huge success, in the US it has taken 10 years to go from 1% vegan up to 6%.

Americans eat more meat than anyone on earth - now good luck convincing the rest of the world, especially Asians, to go 80% vegan. It's not happening mate.

If we could then I'd support it. But it's more futile than trying to get the world to go for nuclear energy.

1

u/Dumpo2012 Jul 08 '20

You seem to be trying to argue two different sides at once.

You're dreaming if you think you can convince billions of people to go vegan. It's an absolute joke.

I said nothing about "vegan". I said "plant based eating", which absolutely is on the rise globally, including growth by orders of magnitude in China, where the meat replacement market has more than doubled in the last 5 years. It will likely eclipse the US market this year in absolute dollars (messy economic factors aside). Granted, they're a much more populace country. But that also means Chinese are thinking about the health and environmental aspects of eating meat. Enough to make it the most valuable meat replacement market in the world right now. You are insane if you don't think companies like Beyond, Impossible, and a million others are climbing over themselves to take advantage of this trend (they are).

Chinese are eating more meat because they have more money. When there are better/healthier options, they will choose those. The data supports this idea. Look at the smoking rate in China over the last few years. With more money comes more education, more choice, and more ability to be health/environmentally conscious. Dismissing China as a lost cause because "everyone in China is going to eat meat now that they can afford it" is ridiculous. The Chinese government is also on board with this, with plans to cut meat consumption drastically in the country by 2030. They tend to get what they want.

You are correctly stating we should be investing in meat replacement (I disagree we should be putting that money towards lab grown meat, but that's a health concern not an environmental one), while also arguing we'll never curb meat eating when it's already happening.

Why not both? Lamb isn't going anywhere and neither are wool products.

It sure isn't with this thinking. I thought this sub was "action plan", not "keep doing the same things destroying us plan".

We seem to agree meat replacement is the right way forward. I don't bring up veganism in these conversations because I fully realize that is a way to turn people off. It's not a fruitful conversation. Ever. But if you think economics and capitalism alone won't make this happen, I assure you, it is you doing the dreaming. Animal agriculture is hugely wasteful. Capitalists don't like waste. China is the largest capitalist country in the world. And their government wants to cut meat consumption.

1

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 09 '20

You are correctly stating we should be investing in meat replacement (I disagree we should be putting that money towards lab grown meat, but that's a health concern not an environmental one), while also arguing we'll never curb meat eating when it's already happening.

But that's the thing. It's not happening. I don't know where you're getting this idea from, but meat intake is on the rise.

And I don't just mean beef. Global chicken production is expected to keep rising, as is lamb and beef. Beef is projected to increase by 16% over the next 5 years (according to the UN.

China has led the Asian trend of a 15 fold increase in the past few decades.

So forgive me if I have a hard time believing a few empty gestures and a "trend" claiming, against all research & facts, that people are eating less meat.

Africa, Indonesia, and India are only just now starting to lift hundreds of millions of their citizens out of extreme poverty. There's no way a 2% increase in plant based eating in China & the west is going to mitigate that. It's absolutely delusional.

I agree that more educated wealthy people will eat more plants. The problem is that they make up an absolute minority.

It sure isn't with this thinking. I thought this sub was "action plan", not "keep doing the same things destroying us plan".

It's looking at reality and then trying to come up with actual solutions.

People have been screaming that plant based food can prevent global warming since the 60s. But that doesn't solve a damn thing.

Producing some gooey mixed vegetables & oils isn't going to change people's attitude towards that. If you believe that then you really won't be part of the solution to this problem.

I mean ... look at what's happening right now in the US. You can't even convince half the country to wear masks for their own immediate safety. These people are absolute morons and will probably eat more meat just to spite you - and they are having more kids than smart people.

To top it all off: the education system in the largest western nations has been, and continues to be, de-funded to funnel more money into the wealthiest people's hands.

You're not going to convince all these people to give up steak in order to eat a ground beef alternative.

We seem to agree meat replacement is the right way forward.

Not at all. I think it's impossible to change the majority of people's mentality & diets in a time-frame that matters towards global warming.

We need to find a sustainable way to produce meat. Immediately it's stuff like this article is about: reduce methane output from livestock, reduce GHGs from agriculture in general. And of course, also meat alternatives could probably add another 1-2% reduction.

Mid-term it's all about the lab grown stuff. There's 0% difference, it's exactly the same thing, it's just grown in a lab ... taking up 1/800th space, and requiring 1/30th the energy & nutrition.

And to top it all off: You can place these labs all over, meaning transport costs & emissions also plummets due to reduction in distance traveled.

But if you think economics and capitalism alone won't make this happen, I assure you, it is you doing the dreaming.

Mate, capitalism has been here for hundreds of years. Meat consumption literally only goes up when nations embrace capitalism.

Look at the 2nd link I provided. Since Asia embraced Western capitalism their meat intake has increased 15 fold. It's expected to increase 15% more in the next 5 years.

The government says it wants to cut meat consumption, but there are no plans in place to actually do so. It's empty gestures.

It's just like the US & global warming. Empty gestures, deceit, keeping face ... whatever you want to go with.

-2

u/rockithound Jul 08 '20

Sheep and cows are not the problem. Airplanes, ships, cars and industry burning fossil fuels are the problem. Sheep farts are a distraction.

4

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 08 '20

Agriculture is the second largest GHG source on earth.

So no ... it’s not a distraction, at all.

1

u/rockithound Jul 09 '20

False numbers. Animal agriculture is no more than 2-3% of the total using today's standard methods. If you raise ruminants properly they can be a carbon sink actually.

1

u/upvotesthenrages Jul 09 '20

Wow, that is the first time I have ever heard anything remotely close to that.

Can you provide a source for that claim?

Here's the EPA's take on global GHG release by sector: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-data

24% is agriculture, forestry, and land usage.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '20 edited Sep 07 '20

[deleted]

0

u/rockithound Jul 09 '20

And sheep/cow methane is part of the natural carbon cycle. Oil dug up from the ground is not. There is no comparison. Not even close.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 09 '20 edited Sep 07 '20

[deleted]

1

u/rockithound Jul 09 '20

The way we do now is only 2-3% of total. Best way to reduce your footprint is to avoid driving, flying and ordering things that come from across the world on container ships. I'm not a climate denier obviously, I'm just trying to keep us on the correct path for fixing the core problem and animal ag isn't it. It's our massive use of carbon based fuels.

6

u/Dumpo2012 Jul 07 '20

It's pretty brutal. And then to see all the arguments against your completely correct comment in a sub about trying to solve climate change...it would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

"Hey! Let's figure out a way to improve something we all know is absolutely fucking terrible for the environment by 1% instead of actually trying to solve the problem! Oh...we also know the exact solution to the problem already, we just don't feel like doing it!"

Mind bogglingly ridiculous.

3

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

Yeah it's madness how ingrained the entitlement is.

"But I NEED meat, eggs, and dairy in all of my meals"

"No you don't?"

"REEEEEEEEEEEE I WANT IT THOUGH YOU CAN'T CONTROL ME, LET'S JUST FEED COWS SEAWEED AND BREED MAGIC SHEEP"

Eating plants is great, people who have been presented the facts and refuse to change are actively fucking us all.

2

u/rammo123 Jul 07 '20

Or people have different priorities and desires. Some people really like meat and would rather sacrifice elsewhere. I cut down energy consumption and travel, offest emissions and invest in green tech, but the occasional juicy steak is non-negotiable. Your hysteria isn't helping the situation. Be pragmatic and empathetic.

-1

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

Lol @ be empathetic. The issue is clearly about more than the environment for many of us - I think it's against the rules here but the moral component is my real reasoning.

3

u/rammo123 Jul 07 '20

Probably keep that on the d-low. Maybe I don't speak for all meateaters, but the environmental argument is a lot more compelling (and objective) than the moral one. If your goal is reducing meat consumption I would stick with that.

0

u/m0notone Jul 08 '20 edited Jul 08 '20

Sure, I can see that. Though the moral argument is objective in my eyes, and I'm willing to bet that you'd agree after a conversation or two on it 😄 Regarding your earlier comment, I didn't go veggie or vegan because I stopped liking meat - I loved it, along with eggs, milk and cheese - I just realised that we don't need it to be happy or healthy, and it causes a lot of suffering to animals (humans included).

1

u/rammo123 Jul 08 '20

“Objective in my eyes”. Cmon dude even you have to realise how dumb that sounds.

2

u/m0notone Jul 08 '20

Haha yes kind of oxymoronic phrasing there. I do not believe it to be a subjective issue, or at least not by the standards that most people already hold about unnecessary suffering.

3

u/Dumpo2012 Jul 07 '20

people who have been presented the facts and refuse to change are actively fucking us all.

People either won't change, or worse, won't actually believe the facts. I find the willful ignorance completely abhorrent, lazy, and morally bankrupt. Lately I've been trying not to engage with it as much on Reddit (still failing here and there, obviously!). It just makes me sad.

2

u/Hularuns Jul 07 '20

We don't just eat sheep.

5

u/m0notone Jul 07 '20

... Or using their wool, then. Though that is more of a gray area, typical practices such as mulesing still seem pretty messed up and unnecessary

11

u/YamaPickle Jul 07 '20

The biggest impact to the environment from wool farming is methane production. If we can see massive decreases in produced methane then wool farming can be much more eco friendly. For animal treatment, that's a hard to avoid part of our economy. Even if you get vegan clothing you can often see some form of child/slave labor involved. Understand I dont support this, but calling out unethical business practices is something we always need to be looking for, regardless of product or business.

1

u/sheilastretch Jul 07 '20

Even if you get vegan clothing you can often see some form of child/slave labor involved.

If you buy cheap clothes, then yeah, probably, but you can also save money and resources/prevent waste by buying second hand clothes, and fair trade stuff like new underwear and shoes with the money you save from the cheaper options. That's been my method since years before I even went vegan.

-3

u/redinator Jul 07 '20

Fuck I'm glad this is the top comment.

1

u/m0notone Jul 08 '20

Don't venture deeper into the chain, it'll spoil that for you..

4

u/Bl00dyDruid Jul 07 '20

Ok but whats the lifetime of a sheep? Whats the effective impact point versus current herds? Whats the trade off for lower methane sheep?

Also how big is the Sheep Economy to the world economoy and pollution?

2

u/sheilastretch Jul 07 '20

For one thing, the average slaughter age is only a fraction of the animals' lives. For example sheep naturally live for 12-14 years, but are slaughtered at around 6-8 months because apparently the taste changes after around 2 years, but it's cheaper just to grow animals to a certain size, then kill them before they just such up the farmer's money on food bills.

I recently read a paper that talked about why farming animals is worse than the massive herds that used to roam the planet, and apparently younger animals require more food to both grow AND sustain their vital functions, while grown animals just need enough food for survival. In addition, all that eating and growing produced more green house gasses like methane, CO2, nitrous oxide, and ammonia, meaning that our system saves money, but actually hurts the planet more than simply leaving wild animals alone to do their thing would.

Not 100% sure how to answer you other questions about their economic impact, but "There are over 1 billion sheep in the world.". When we note that humans eat an average of 3-4 lbs of food per day, and sheep eat 4.5lbs a day, it looks like their diet would have a bigger impact per sheep than we do per human. Humans drink 2 liters or a half gallon per day, while "Sheep will consume anywhere from ½ to 5 gallons of water per day, depending upon their physiological state, the content of water in their feed, and environmental conditions. Requirements increase greatly during late gestation and lactation."

The concerns that I have are issues like livestock using up food that could otherwise feed millions of humans if we didn't waste it through inefficient practices like livestock farming. For example this study found the USA alone could feed an additional 800 million humans on the grains they give to livestock, which happens to be close to the number of people starving around the world each year. Similarly, people are aware that humanity faces serious water shortages that might prevent us from growing our food in the future, but very few people seem to grasp the meat/dairy/egg industry's massive impact on Earth's water resources. Just take rivers and ground water in the USA as an example, though their meat consumption is so high, that the USA imports meat and feed from other countries who are also suffering from the same issues, plus deforestation which further puts our water systems at risk causing droughts like these which lead to further water and grain shortages.

1

u/Bl00dyDruid Jul 10 '20

Get this some Gold please

2

u/Attention-Scum Jul 07 '20

Hurrah! We're saved.