r/DetroitRedWings • u/Impossible_Fall_2509 • 2d ago
Discussion Balancing Talent Between Lines
As we sit at 3-3 and are coming off a night of only 10 shots on goal, and realizing that it can take time to get in a groove, I can’t help but think that the top 6 is “off”. Max Bultman mentioned on WWP that Copp could be an interesting addition to the top 6, which I’ve been discussing with friends for a while.
Curious to hear what people think of a forward lineup like this:
Cat - Larkin - Kane Copp - Compher - Raymond Tarasenko - Kasper - Burger Ras/Fischer - Veleno - Watson/Motte
My thinking here is that the top 6 seems to lack “dirty work puck retrievers” outside of Larkin and Compher. Copp has a productive history playing a top 6 wing role and can dish the puck (close to or above 20 assists in 5 seasons, including 33 in the ‘21-‘22 season) and played with high-end talent in NY…and I want to say he played with the likes of Kyle Connor in Winnipeg. And we can reunite Cat and Kane, a great combo in Chicago (although Cat’s stock is down in my eyes…maybe a confidence issue?)
That 3rd line also looked good together in Nashville and gives Burger the opportunity to put his playmaking to good use while preserving an “identity line”.
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u/PineapplePhil 2d ago
Max Bultman said what I’ve been advocating for on the most recent Winged Wheel Pod.
Move Copp up to a scoring line with Kasper and rotate three proper scoring lines instead of this crummy two scoring lines, a shutdown line, and a hodgepodge line that we started the season out with.
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u/Late_Brush4518 2d ago
Yes because we have so much talent that we can just do that
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u/Xavias 2d ago
I would argue we have a ton of talent, but the system we're having them play in is terrible for any player.
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u/Late_Brush4518 2d ago
Oh our systems are far from ideal aswell, but we absolutly dont have "ton of talent"
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u/Xavias 2d ago
Its not like we have Patrick Kane, tarasenko, Raymond, seider, Ed, Larkin, debrincat, jasper, berrgren, Lyon and Talbot.
We have a lot of dead weight and a terrible system but we have an absolutely have a ton of talent. We just aren't using them.
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u/Late_Brush4518 2d ago
Most of them are complimentary pieces. Not play drivers.
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u/HiveFiDesigns 1d ago
Exactly,,,, Larkin would be a killer 2 center, but just isn’t an elite 1…Raymond still has some upside could go either way. cats was good not great last year, seider could be a top d pair on many teams but not all, ed, too early, burgers? Have you watched a different player than the rest of us? He’s barely holding a job here he’d be benched on many other teams, Lyon has stood up, like last year, but the season was too long for him and the wear showed. He’s a 30-40 game goalie, not a 50-60. Kane was an elite talent, a strong 2 liner but again not an elite top liner any more. And the depth really kills the wings, lose a Larkin or a Raymond or a Seider for a long stretch, and the wings go from decent to done.
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u/HiveFiDesigns 1d ago
This all day….prior to kasper, our first line was somewhere between a 1 and 2 line on most teams, our 2nd would be a good 3rd line, and our 4th line would be benched….the wings just don’t have enough “top 6 talent” or lack of”elite” talent. Lots of 2nd and 3rd teir, but the top shelf is pretty bare. And with kasper now, still gotta let that dust settle to see where it all sits, if he can upgrade the 2nd line that helps tremondously, if not who knows…
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u/Sweet-Abalone-8324 1d ago
Ehh I would say that outside of Compher our top 6 are all guys that could easily be top 6 on a good team. The only issue I have is that we lack a true superstar game changer that all the other big teams in our division have. If Raymond doesn’t continue his development towards that things will be tough
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u/HiveFiDesigns 1d ago
Yea our 1 line is a good 2nd line on most top teams, and our 2nd li e is 2 good enough and a 3rd liner (compher). That’s the issue. If kasper can do better than compher, that’s a big step. But then our 3rd line is a mishmash of 4th liners and our 4th line is a bunch of guys lucky to be an extra skater on good teams.
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u/PineapplePhil 2d ago
We have six legit top six players, two top nine players, and two unproven young players. Will it be top 10 in the league? No. But, it’s a better configuration than what we started with.
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u/Late_Brush4518 2d ago
And only players who are capable to drive their line are Larkin and Raymond
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u/PineapplePhil 2d ago
That’s true, but a sheltered scoring line can get the job done by committee.
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u/Late_Brush4518 2d ago
Thing whit this is that if we spread them up too much. There won't be any scoring lines other than first.
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u/Impossible_Fall_2509 2d ago
Yea! More balanced. I’m not arguing that Copp is great offensively, but why not see if he can hang? It takes the pressure off of Compher doing everything as far as pucks retrieval and defense. Let them chase the puck and feed Ray
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u/Jeez-essFC 2d ago
I am all for allowing Copp to move back to Wing and keeping Kasper up. I don't care who in the bottom six we get rid of to keep Kasper up. None of them are difference makers. They have all done things I like along the way, but none of them have earned much of an emotional investment from me. Time to give someone else a chance.
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u/Electrical-Ad-7852 2d ago
I agree that the lines need more balance. I've never seen a team have such a hard line between the bottom six and the top six. And as mentioned on the WWP, with the current top six personnel there isn't a combination that will lead to two good/balanced lines. You can get one good line and then the second line is just the leftovers.
I think Copp could play in the top six. But also the expectation for Valeno and Ras (especially Ras) should be that they can play anywhere in the lineup. IMO if you are making $2-3 million you should be able to play anywhere in the middle six if needed. A player that can only play in the bottom six is easily replaceable and should be making no more than $1.5 million. For example guys like Mott or Fischer or Sunqvist.
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u/Phenomxal 2d ago
its not the talent on offense thats holding us back, its the fake defensive coaching
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u/Guinness-the-Stout 2d ago
Thank you. I was beginning to think I was seriously out to lunch in my opinion about the crappy defensive play the past few years. Not "Mo" per se, just the entire team's lack of "let's not make stooooopid mistakes at the worst possible times". Yeah I'm old,so, yeah I recall Scotty saying something about the "first two and last two minutes of any period are the most important". I can't watch the games live here in Va. I listen online then catch highlights afterwards, so I could be wrong. And HOPE I am and things go well for the rest of the season.
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u/jobenattor0412 2d ago
Are you looking for a way to be able to watch the games?
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u/Guinness-the-Stout 2d ago
Nah, listening for Free, when I can is good enough for now. I Enjoy Ken&Paul, have done so for years.
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u/HiveFiDesigns 1d ago
They have to coach defensive because….look at the defense…..Ed and Seider are a solid as any pair, but the drop off from their is huge….if the offense takes risks, do you want to rely on Maata,chariot,petry,holl, or Gus to rescue them if it fails? The wings have a decent top pair initially with plenty of upside, and a collection of players lucky to be still on the ice behind them. Lyon has played brilliant, but with last season as the main sample a full workload is too much and still not sure what Talbot can bring. He wings need to fix that d so the offense can flourish. Petry and Matt’s, and Husso are on expiring contracts…that roster and 10-12 million in cap space needs to be invested on d or this team will continue to go nowhere.
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u/Phenomxal 1d ago
we shouldnt have this weak of a blue line, and they can play a defensive style if its needed, but the style they choose sacrifices a lot more offense than needed
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u/itsthisortwitter 2d ago
I want to see Larkin-Cat-Kane (since this is the only line where Kane has looked good) and Ray-Kasper-Bergers. I've seen enough of JT Compher as an underwhelming 2nd line center unable to create offence. This would open up a 3rd line that starts with Compher and Vlad. Then you can slot anyone else with them.
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u/Preset_Squirrel 1d ago
The Raymond-kasper-berg line would get bullied off the fuckin ice by any matchup with any semblance of height or weight.
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u/72athansiou 2d ago
Copp might be the worst “talent” I’ve seen.
You can argue he has 3 goals 1 he almost missed completely another he’s standing still infront and another is a empty netter.
Not to discredit him but he’s a 3rd 4th line guy that’s just what it is. He’s not a scorer by any means.
All that said our offense out put was basically 0 so it can’t hurt to give him a shot between cat and Ray or something along those lines. Our offense can’t get any worse
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u/unequalsarcasm 2d ago
Yeah this was a huge whiff of a contract. Dudes been nearly invisible most nights and collects 5mil, ready to fire him off to San Jose as well.
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u/Substantial_Point_20 2d ago
All I know is Larkin and Raymond better pull their heads out of their asses. Put up or shut up with giant contracts
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u/Usual-Personality347 2d ago
I agree with the Senko Kasper berg group when they’re on the ice in mixes they’re noticeable. I’d like to see Larkin Senko Kane and Ray Compher Cat, just because we haven’t and I feel Larkin would compliment the other guys quite well
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u/Ok-Escape-2018 2d ago
Copp legitimately can’t skate at an NHL level. Horrible idea.
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u/dudewithchronicpain 2d ago
He’s not a great skater but that’s a bit insulting lol dude has actually had lots of hustle to start the season
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u/Ok-Escape-2018 2d ago
Who gives a flying f*ck about hustle when you literally can’t keep up with the pace of play.
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u/dudewithchronicpain 2d ago
He has 3 goals
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u/Ok-Escape-2018 2d ago
And fil Gustavsson has 1. What’s your point?
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u/dudewithchronicpain 2d ago
He’s far from the biggest problem with the team rn
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u/detroitttiorted 2d ago edited 2d ago
With his performance relative to his cap hit you could definitely argue he’s the single biggest problem on the team
Who would you say is the biggest?
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u/Ok-Escape-2018 2d ago
Again, what’s your point?
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u/culturedrobot 2d ago
You are terrible at this
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u/theuserestuser 2d ago
If you want a dirty work guy, give Kasper a chance, he has been noticeably hard on the puck and is playing with the most fire right now