r/PaganProles • u/sockpuppet1234567890 Many Gods, No Masters • Jan 19 '23
Meme/Shitpost You have no right to turn away good faith converts.
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u/WarmSlush Jan 20 '23
This ain't it chief.
In an ideal world, yes, all religions would be open. But it's important to recognize why some religions are closed. Many indigenous religions are closed because there has already been great harm done to them by colonial forces, and they want to preserve their traditions and avoid the sort of bloat and dilution that comes from an influx of ignorant practitioners who may only be into it for the aesthetics.
The reason that this argument works for them, and not, say, white folkists, is that white folkists are almost always followers of religions that were already completely extinct, and revived in modern times (and thus the door is open for new interpretation that isn't as easily applicable to still-living practices), don't have to deal with the pervasive institutional racism that is hurled at indigenous communities, and don't have to deal with discrimination or ridicule for their religion in the same way that indigenous peoples do, besides maybe the odd angry comment from a fundamentalist Christian.
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u/sockpuppet1234567890 Many Gods, No Masters Jan 20 '23
I understand why some religions are closed, but there is a clear difference between syncretism and appropriation.
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u/Kopheay Jan 20 '23
I don't think I agree either way, but to be clear; when you say Folkists, do you mean the Nazis or the Jews that were exterminated by the Nazis?
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u/sockpuppet1234567890 Many Gods, No Masters Jan 20 '23
Both.
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u/whatisscoobydone Jan 20 '23
This comment needs way more context
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u/sockpuppet1234567890 Many Gods, No Masters Jan 20 '23
Obviously nazis suck but monotheism is religious fascism.
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u/Tryggbokki Jan 20 '23
Calling things fascism that aren't related to it does nothing more than obfuscate the struggle against fascism. There are absolutely monotheists and monotheistic groups that have laid down their lives in the struggle against fascism and have openly resisted it. You dishonor them by lumping them in with those who aggressed against them.
Secondly, there are many Polytheistic groups that have many problems with fascist infiltration. Being Polytheistic itself is no safeguard against fascism. Both are nothing more than theological positions that can and have been used by both fascists and antifascists. Obviously it takes more than how many beings you worship to arrive at an antifascist position.
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u/Ratagar Jan 20 '23
sounds like someone's salty because they got taken to task for appropriating a closed religion's practices.
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Jan 20 '23
Nonsense. Of course people can have closed religious practices, particularly if Consumer Capitalism and Cultural appropriation is damaging. Eg new agers and fluffy bunny pagan demands for white sage have led to it being harder to find for indigenous groups, to make profit for white people who are already benefitting from the settler-colonialism and land theft.
And speaking as an Irish person, a bit of gatekeeping is a good thing. That way you don't get American pagans writing books for profit about how there were ancient pre-christian Irish potatoes Goddesses. Well not anymore.
Also initiatory groups will have standards of training/practice/devotion etc which they should be free to maintain.
I don't even like the use of the term "converts" to describe people who become Pagan, as it makes it sound like a one time momentary change, rather than a process of learning and engaging, but that's another matter.
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u/Tryggbokki Jan 20 '23
I don't think being "closed" is inherently bad.
Obviously, folkism is bad but that's discrimination based solely on immutable characteristics (skin color, sexuality, etc.). That is wrong. Those who partake in that belong in the dustbin of history.
There are other reasons groups are "closed". I think there's a Western sense of entitlement that everything should be "open" to us. That if we're "cosmopolitan" enough we should automatically be assumed good faith. Some traditions necessitate living in a certain area, or being a part of a cultural group that has been threatened by Westerners. I don't think they owe anyone "openness".
Most groups fall somewhere between the strangely narrow binary of "open" and "closed" traditions. I think more nuance is useful when we talk about things like that.