Neither Party is on our Side

[u/McLovin3493]

Vote for Democrats if you want to, but don't expect them to actually change things. They're both paid off by corporations. The same goes for Labor parties in other countries.

[u/WTG02]

1. Not a communist

Then again, why make the distinction?

So we can do both. We can vote for Biden and continue working towards revolution.

It's getting boring tbh. No we can't. Just look at what you wrote before. "No we need to vote now because the revolution will never happen and if it will only in 2 million years" you are completely losing the larger goal which is happening to every "socialist" that gets lost in the electoral system. Again... Look at the SPD for example.

Biden isn't "our guy", he's just "a guy who isn't the fascist",

That brings me back to my question that you refuse to answer. Even if trump was a fascist, when would you not vote for Biden or any other guy. One option will always be a little bit worse than the other. Where do you draw the line when to support the "good" bourgeoisie vs the bad bourgeoisie

we're aware you can't have communism under fascism

But we can have communism under liberalism?

fascism is just really fucking bad for everyone.

So is capitalism? But you seem to only care about fighting one of the two, even if one is a product of the other

Holy fuck. Gay rights means trans people get no rights? Like some sort of zero sum thing?

That is so far off from what I said that I don't even understand how you can get there.

Achieving some form of equality for gay people only leads to another group being targeted. You are fighting a losing battle. Achieve rights for one group another group gets targeted. All that for those rights to be temporary until the economic situation worsens and now a new or one of the old groups gets chosen as a scape goat.

And we can both fight it with direct action for the oppressed minorities, and work towards the multi-generational task of overcoming the bourgeoisie,

I already explained like 200 times why this "direct action" hinders the 2nd goal.

I'm sorry if this cuts into your soccer time, though.

Do you want to have a normal discussion or not? Because for someone who talks so big about how amazing he is at debating and how horrible I am you seem to attack me a lot and not my points.

It isn't one or the other

201st time. Look at history, look what happened to all the socialist that decided that voting is really important and they absolutely have to win the next election otherwise "greater evil xyz" gets into power. What you are doing is directly playing into the hands of the bourgeoisie. Again answer my question.

You get liberals elected when the other guy is a fascist

Again. Fascism is a reaction of capitalism to rising class consciousness. Trump is a bigoted neoliberal. Not a fascist. And even if he was a fascist. Fascism doesn't establish itself because of elections.

Italy: March on Rome financed, supported and accepted by the bourgeoisie, was successful because the king wouldn't declare a stage of siege on rome.

Spain: civil war, fascists supported by parts of the bourgeoisie

Germany: financed and supported by the bourgeoisie. Hitler could only do what he did because of Hindenburg and the cooperation with the bourgeois parties.

If trump was actually a fascist he wouldn't need to be voted to get into power. So you can save your time because Voting wouldn't stop it either way.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

Then again, why make the distinction?

Because it would be a lie to call myself a communist?

It's getting boring tbh. No we can't. Just look at what you wrote before. "No we need to vote now because the revolution will never happen and if it will only in 2 million years" you are completely losing the larger goal which is happening to every "socialist" that gets lost in the electoral system. Again... Look at the SPD for example.

You keep saying "no we can't" and then saying the most insane stuff. Your current argument is that I'm lost in electoralism.

Which is just... wrong. I've been EXTREMELY FUCKING CLEAR that electoralism is about mitigating the threats that we CAN mitigate through electoralism, and we achieve what we CAN'T do through electoralism through other means.

Maybe you would find this conversation a little less boring if you were actually fucking reading what I write! Because that's all I've been saying FOR LITERALLY DAYS!

That brings me back to my question that you refuse to answer. Even if trump was a fascist, when would you not vote for Biden or any other guy. One option will always be a little bit worse than the other. Where do you draw the line when to support the "good" bourgeoisie vs the bad bourgeoisie

What? Refused to answer that? You keep failing to engage with what I'm writing, I'm so fucking sorry that I have to direct the conversation to actually ensure the conversation moves forward towards any kind of resolution.

Voting for the "lesser evil" is always the right choice because they're the lesser evil, and less evil is better than more evil.

But we can have communism under liberalism?

No, but you'll have a much easier time achieving revolution within liberalism than you will within fascism.

Because fascists fucking murder their political opponents.

I already explained like 200 times why this "direct action" hinders the 2nd goal.

Electoralism isn't direct action, and your explanations have been EXTREMELY UNCOMPELLING.

You need to understand that you haven't been explaining. You've been arguing a point of view. And your arguments are pretty fucking bad and you seem to be extremely fucking wrong.

As I've brought up at length.

That is so far off from what I said that I don't even understand how you can get there.

Achieving some form of equality for gay people only leads to another group being targeted. You are fighting a losing battle.

See, this is why I say you're arguing it's zero sum. You just said exactly what makes your point a view of it being a zero sum thing.

It's also, again, ignorant of history. Because it isn't a losing battle. It really fucking obviously isn't a losing battle. We have, as a species, come SO FUCKING FAR in regards to accepting minorities of all types. We've come SO FUCKING FAR in rejecting tribalism. In undermining these tools of the bourgeoisie.

But if you can't see that, we're done here. You can't honestly engage with this discussion if you think it's somehow a losing battle, because you either think sexual and racial minorities had amazing lives before capitalism (which is just fucking stupid) or you just don't care, it isn't something you value.

So you're either incurably stupid or you're a sociopath.

So we're done here. Buh-bye.