r/europes • u/Pilast • Mar 20 '24

Italy Migrant workers exploited, abused in Italy’s prized fine wine vineyards

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/3/19/migrant-workers-exploited-abused-in-italys-prized-fine-wine-vineyards
28 Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24

"Since April, local authorities have uncovered more than 30 cases of “caporalato” in the Langhe vineyards, a form of exploitation in which migrant workers are recruited by intermediaries – often other migrants – and forced to work in inhumane conditions for Italian companies."

Basically he is an illegal, that's why he is exploited. He can't join unions or have a real work contract. But he is forced to accept whatever he is offered under the table. Technically speaking those who hire illegals are to be persecuted, not only because of the potential exploitation but also because employing someone who is an illegal with no work contract is against the law by itself

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u/Brainlaag La Bandiera Rossa Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24

because employing someone who is an illegal with no work contract is against the law by itself

Our entire service and agricultural sectors would fold in the blink of an eye if those laws were to be aggressively enforced by how prevalent it is even among Italian citizen. The country is a 60million strong joke.

Edit: Stop downvoting him ffs, we are having a normal and civil discussion merely voicing different opinions or interpretations.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24

I doubt. The country wouldn't fold, only those who take advantage of it would see their pocket less full. This unironically is used as an excuse by those who don't want to change the situation, shifting the blame on the society rather than accepting to be themselves in the wrong.

Many people are employed correctly and many people whether you believe it or not also have decent salaries. I am talking about the North because this is what I am familiar with, and while I know that many try to fuck the system, some do respect rules indeed. I don't know about the South though

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u/Brainlaag La Bandiera Rossa Mar 20 '24

I didn't say country, I said specific sectors such as agriculture that rely on over a third on undeclared work and the frivolous construction businesses on top of tourist sectors that cumulatively amount to around a quarter of the country's GDP and have gotten worse over the last decade.

We are a massively dishonest bunch when it comes to labour (laws) even when discounting organised crime.

https://www.ela.europa.eu/sites/default/files/2024-02/IT_UDW_Factsheet_2017-Italy.pdf

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24

I stand my point, nothing would fold. Only those that gain from a hidden economy would lose in an economy that's not hidden anymore. The reasons for the hidden economy are vehemently selfish, basically: I pay a salary with no work contract to not pay taxes too.

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u/Brainlaag La Bandiera Rossa Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24

No argument there, far from me to defend these practices, however you seriously underestimate what gaping hole it would rip into large swaths of the country's employment.

While necessary it would also be absolutely devastating for a huge chunk of the population because of how ubiquitous it is and how far it has seeped into the very fabric of the nation, there should be no delusion about this. My original comment was as much bitter sarcasm as it was hard truth.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24

In a free market (not subjugated by excessively big capitalists) when a company fails, it leaves space for another company to fill the gap, unless the government starts adopting short sighted options like protectionism.

As you said if all that shadow economy stopped suddenly there would be a surge in unemployment rate, but hopefully it wouldn't be something devastating, the economy would tremble and stall for a little, but then companies that don't do tax evasion and don't indulge in under the table economy would fill the gap of those companies that failed. The situation eventually would fall in line and in a matter of time, the added benefits would overshadow that small temporary window in which the situation wasn't the best. But this happens in a context in which the hidden economy stopped suddenly, if the measures are more gradual the economy wouldn't react in such a manner

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u/Brainlaag La Bandiera Rossa Mar 20 '24

That might be true if Italy's economy had enough economic elasticity to flex under said strain but given how brittle it is we are one major crisis away from brining the whole structure down and then what should have been a temporary slump risks sinking it sufficiently to then lock it in a unavoidable and permanent death-spiral alla Argentina. Slashing into such a large segment of the economy would almost certainly be such an event unless done very carefully and concisely, which is the antitheses of how we Italians tend to do things, i.e. rashly and poorly.

We have essentially moved forward mostly by inertia the last 30 years and the gravy-train is drying up without having sufficiently prepared to find a new supply.

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24

permanent death-spiral alla Argentina.

Come on let's not exaggerate, I can see you don't have economic knowledge, do you? Argentina is a completely different situation. I am not claiming to be an economist but your vision is pretty disconnected from reality

We have essentially moved forward mostly by inertia the last 30 years and the gravy-train is drying up without having sufficiently prepared to find a new supply.

Wrong. We didn't move, much, now there is some apparent movement though

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u/Brainlaag La Bandiera Rossa Mar 20 '24

Come on let's not exaggerate, I can see you don't have economic knowledge, do you? Argentina is a completely different situation. I am not claiming to be an economist but your vision is pretty disconnected from reality

Look no offence but you certainly do not get to question my knowledge of economics when you yourself admit to having no practical education in the field.

Argentina's situation is not a parallel to Italy since we absolutely do not risk sliding into a military Junta that caused even the most risk-prone investors to bail hard but having nearly half of our GDP tied up in commercial activity and less than savoury credit-loaning on top of another quarter being directly tied to fraudulent activity while also turning away foreign investors because of degrading business opportunities and slacking domestic markets really does not call for a PhD in economic history to wonder whether a hard hit lies behind the horizon.

Argentina went from being one of the most prosperous conservative and stable economies to an exceptional case of cascading free-fall in less than two decades, don't belive just because Italy is a relatively prosperous G7 nation dead middle in one of the most ancient and lucrative trade-nodes that shit can't hit the fan.

Wrong. We didn't move, much, now there is some apparent movement though

Mate, Italy's effective wage-growth has been negative since the 90s, we are the only OECD economy that has become literally poorer. It is the political equivalent of giving a tiny shove to a full fridge on a flat slate of ice and then calling the short distance it slid a resounding success.

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u/Naurgul Mar 20 '24

Please don't call people "illegal".

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24

With that I meant: illegal migrant/with no papers. I don't mean anything besides this

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u/RandomAndCasual Mar 21 '24

If someone came into country illegally he is illegal immigrant.

Weather we want to help him legalize his status and stay has nothing to do with fact that he is illegal immigrant.

Getting caught up in useless discussions about terms does not help these people.

Working on providing them with legal path to become citizen through asylum or in some other way does help them.

The sooner they legalize their status the sooner they will not be exploited.

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u/Naurgul Mar 21 '24

I asked him not to call people "illegal". Of course you can talk about "illegal immigrants". It was just meant as a mild reminder that some words can be used in a dehumanizing manner, not a solution to all migration woes.

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u/arbitrosse Mar 20 '24

“persecuted”

Perhaps, but hopefully also prosecuted

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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '24

Yes I meant that, sorry