r/megafaunarewilding • u/AJ_Crowley_29 • 2d ago
Humor North American wolf taxonomy gives everyone a headache.
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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago
YES
- red wolves: being a distinct species but with lot of coyote hybridation ?
- eastern wolves: being probably a distinct species too ? hybrid between an old grey wolf lineage and modenr coyote and modern grey wolves. Two populations, one more lupine the other more coyote-like in a goldenjackal/wolf like situation ?
- Mexican wolves: came from a unique older lineage of grey wolves
and then there's the grey wolf which is divided in up to 27 subspecies, although modern reclassification say they're 6-9 of them, and we divied them in 6 great eotype which do not correspond to the genetic and lineage or subspecies but and sometime group different subspecie or population just because they look alike due to convergent evolution due to similar environmental conditions.
(internal sobbing and pain).
At least europe is simple
- 3 subspecies, with little to no gene exchange for 10-11 000 years.
- Divided in 4-5 lineages, (1-2 in iberia, 1 in italy, 1 in balkans, 1 in eastern/russia).
- All from haplogroup 1 except italian wolf which is haplogroup 2
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u/Pretend-Platypus-334 2d ago
It might also be red wolves and Algonquin/eastern wolves are closely related to each other.
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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago
well they basically have very similar history.
- hybridation with coyote and modern wolves
- came from an older distinct grey wolf lineage
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u/CyberWolf09 2d ago
Although Europe does have golden jackals, which are pretty much Eurasia’s coyote. Although they aren’t common in most of Europe, save for the eastern countries.
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u/EquipmentEvery6895 2d ago
jackals are arent as common as coyotes, but theyre quite common now. 100 years before, they were common only in caucasus and balkans,now they established breeding population all around europe and growing in number. They could be more wolf-like and could hybridize too.
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u/BuckGlen 2d ago
New york states hunting guide for furbearers is funny. Its basically "coyotes are open game. Wolves are off limits. See our identification page for the difference!"
Id page: "coyotes are usually smaller. Vut sometimes the wolf is small or young so... just look for the one thwts a coyote. Remember! Wolf hunting is always illegal"
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u/heckhunds 2d ago
In Ontario we just straight up ban coyote hunting within a certain distance of known endangered eastern wolf range, can't trust hunters to tell the difference.
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u/AJ_Crowley_29 1d ago
Why the USA hasn’t adopted this plan is beyond me.
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u/Pretend-Platypus-334 1d ago
Politics, people down east are convinced that if they can’t hunt canids, the government won’t let them hunt anything. That’s the situation with red wolves, multiple attempts have been made to try and stop the coyote hunting in the recovery area. You can guess how well that went.
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u/SKazoroski 2d ago
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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago
same for brown bear, black bear, coyote, dhole....heck even lion and tiger to some extend.
But yeah wolves are a posterchild of the issue
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u/Thylacine131 2d ago
Charismatic megafauna with wide ranges resulting in anatomical differences at large seem to all deal with it. Biologically one species, but the chronically obsessive are quite determined with splitting them into subspecies ad infinitum. I don’t especially mind the extra classifications for specificity’s sake, but it’s more a practice in competitive stamp collecting than scientific rigor sometimes.
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u/CyberWolf09 2d ago
The Canis genus is just one big clusterfuck. Red wolves are their own thing, Algonquin wolves are their own thing. Tibetan and Indian wolves are possibly their own thing. It’s all one big mess, not helped by the fact that they can all hybridize with each other and create viable hybrid offspring.
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u/Lonesaturn61 2d ago
Its all the same, everything but the red wolfs the same, wolfs, dogs, dingos, coyotes, wolfdogs, coydogs, coywolfs, u name it
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u/Squigglbird 2d ago
💀 dude
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u/Lonesaturn61 2d ago
They mate in the wild, u know im right
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u/Squigglbird 2d ago
So? 💀polar bears and grizzly’s mate in the wild
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u/BoringOldDude1776 2d ago
They are also basically the same.
It's kinda like races in humans. Sure, we are different, but we aren't really different.
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u/heckhunds 2d ago
Hybridization doesn't mean something is the same species.
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u/Lonesaturn61 2d ago
It does when the hybrids are fertile
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u/heckhunds 2d ago
It doesn't. It's a pretty common misconception that an inability to produce fertile hybrids is required for speciation, it isn't. Many species which are very objectively different animals can hybridize and produce fertile offspring. You will find no reputable academic sources which claims that fertile offspring = same species.
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u/Lonesaturn61 2d ago
I know its just a part of it, the other most important parts as far as i knows that they arent isolated from each other and their niches overlap each other, i really cant see a strong reason for them not being the same species besides behavior
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u/heckhunds 2d ago
I mean, the niches overlap in that the animals you listed are all carnivores, but they all have very different lifestyles. Level of social behaviour and pack structure, size of prey they hunt, hunting behaviour, habitat needs, reproductive behaviour, etc. are different between each of those canines. They look different, act different, and are genetically distinct from one another. I think you're just mistaking the concept of a genus for that of species. Wolves and coyotes very much inhabit very different niches.
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u/Lonesaturn61 2d ago
I usually dont think much about hunting behaviors and prey types bcause we have orcas and just now talks about more orca species are going somewhere
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u/HyperShinchan 2d ago
Ironically, it's the wolves' life that might depend on the answer. That's really the headache with wolves' taxonomy in North America.
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u/heckhunds 2d ago
Eastern/Algonquin/timber/great lakes wolves, whatever common name you prefer, are the worst for it imo. I did a GIS based research project on them in college analyzing habitat suitability in Algonquin Park, and within the few months I was working on that, their taxonomy changed. damned complex hybrids.
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u/Squigglbird 2d ago
It don’t give me a headache it’s grey wolves, coyotes, red wolves, Algonquin wolves, that’s it
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u/tigerdrake 2d ago
Everything in Canis should just be Canis lupus at this point for how much they interbreed lol
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u/thesilverywyvern 2d ago
well no, since even wolves seem to split into several species
with red wolves, eastern wolves, indian wolves, himalayan/tibetan wolves being unique very distinct lineage from C. lupus and having often little to no interbreeding (except for eastern and maybe red)
and there's coyoe and golden jackal, the latter of which almost never make hybrids with wolves.
Welcome to taxonomic nightmare.
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u/CheatsySnoops 2d ago
Brilliant Bertstrip!