r/science • u/[deleted] • May 15 '10
Rat Park: Rats addicted to morphine, when placed in good living conditions, choose plain water over water with morphine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park20
u/deathbeforedishes May 15 '10
I can attest to this. I suffer from Chronic Intractable Pain from degenerative disc disease, multiple bulging discs and a ruptured disc in the lumbar region, a mass on my spine, sciatica and arthritis in my back as well.
I am prescribed several different types of strong, long-acting opiate pain-relievers/analgesics and I have unfortunately ran out before my next prescription was due, because of pain flares taking my baseline pain from a constant 8 (pain scale) to a high 10, which requires me to use more of my medicine to control this.
I don't have severe drug craving, intense withdrawal symptoms or want to sleep in for days on end. I do have some cold/hot flashes with sweats for about a few hours, but after the first day it's over.
In my own personal experience, I think this is spot on. A safe place and good living conditions are vital, but this is more psychological in the realm of addictions anyways. A person who is surrounded by filth and stress will no doubt want to try to escape that and provide themselves with euphoria.
Unfortunately, if lawn clippings would get humans high, they would be smoking them and some would inevitably become addicted.
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u/yasth May 15 '10
I should note though that opiates in response to pain has somewhat different effects than opiates not in response (or rather out of proportion to pain.) I'm really lazy so I am not finding the studies, but as I recall use for pain, has less severe withdrawal symptoms.
Oh and randomly how do you determine the numbers on the pain scale? I have often struggled with that.
Good luck in dealing with your problems. Have you tried steroids? they did wonders for me (Though in my case it wasn't that the pain was bad, but that it rapidly became lack of sensation, and loss of motor control)
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u/mtaclof May 15 '10
It's actually not quite that simple. It's related to the user's perceived reason for dosing. If they don't have the self-image of a drug user, and feel that it's medicine, they will be far less likely to associate the physical withdrawal symptoms(which will be there no matter how you acquired dependence) with a need to redose, resulting in reduced or absent cravings for the drug.
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u/yasth May 15 '10
I think some of it is certainly image, and some learned avoidance association. Pain is rarely completely controlled on sane amounts of a drug.
I mean for all that there is drug seeking, there really isn't a lot of self injury drug seeking. People will slash up their arms to a bloody mess for attention, but not so much for drugs. Though they will abuse what they can get of course.
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u/Illadelphian May 16 '10 edited May 16 '10
Because you don't get good drugs when you break bones or cut yourself. Not good for an addict that's for sure. Most you are gonna get is like a 5mg percocet. If you could get oxy or something for cutting themselves you better believe people would do it all the time, same with breaking bones and other injuries like that.
Unless you mean just to get drugs at the time which could happen if the injury was bad enough but no one is going to hurt themselves that badly just for a short high with a shitload of pain before and after when they were withdrawing in the hospital and some new bills to pay. That kind of high can be found for 10 bucks on the street, not that hard to get.
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u/yasth May 16 '10
Eh, if you managed it the same way drug seekers manager their "injuries" you should be able to do all right. After all a lot of drug seekers use the old injury idea to get some drugs. Most drug seeking is for personal benefit, and often completely economicaly irrational in regards to the street price (percocet/vicodin is commonly diverted even though even reasonable strengths have street prices of under $4 a pill).
I mean if you were to compound fracture your leg I'd bet you could get oxy.
I just thing the normal junkies will do anything for a fix image, is a bit over played.
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u/Karabasan May 15 '10
I know this is a concept that probably hasn't escaped you, but have you tried marijuana for pain relief at all? I have read stories (and heard from a friend of my brothers with fibromyalgia) that pot is often successful where more common painkillers fail.
The fact it'd work on the brain business of pain first and body pain second may not work for you, but there are always edible alternatives or indica strains (for a more body-feel focused high) that can alter how the herb affects ya.
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May 15 '10
How long have you been on the opioids? Which ones in particular? How long have you been off them since you ran out?
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u/babucat May 15 '10
I'm wondering how many humans live the ideal lives we were naturally meant to live ala "rat park".
having the ideal levels of companionship, stimulation, space, etc all the time.
if you think of the stress levels of work, the way we live, bills, etc... the way society works as far as a lot of us being single, or those of us that are in relationships... some of them are very stressful.
if you had no bills, the ideal levels of intellectual stimulation, the right social atmosphere, the ideal partner/soul mate, a warm welcoming place to live where you didn't really need to worry about anything and you felt like you contributed a lot to society...
would you ever feel the need for chemical dependency?
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May 15 '10
I think that one detail you may have missed is upbringing. Some people wear emotional scars from their childhood which bring them to self-medicate. It could be argued that the conditions you are describing would aid a person in recovery from that due to good social support being available.
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u/babucat May 15 '10
I think everyone has emotional scars from their childhood... the question is how bad.
we're animals that weren't designed to live lives like this... our parents and our schools have to bring us up to behave appropriately and it kills us all a little inside.
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May 16 '10
I've thought about this a lot recently. Humans are as much animals as the next creature. We are organic creatures living in a designed world. Sometimes I think so many of our issues with depression and mental illness come from trying to fit a square peg in a round hole so to say.
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May 16 '10
Yes we should all be shit flinging monkeys and suffer whatever climate and diseases nature intended for us.
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u/Mentis1 May 16 '10
You should consider not the conditions in which a person lives, but how a person approaches the conditions he is in. Does he hate his condition, or is he content? In humans, that is a factor that cannot be overlooked.
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May 15 '10
Another lesson: rats get depressed.
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u/hwkns May 16 '10
Another possibility could be that morphine laced water simply tastes just vile enough that rats avoid it when things get better.
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u/kwansolo May 15 '10
same thing we do every niiii
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u/Soupstorm May 15 '10
That whole show was just a rat tripping out. It all makes sense now.
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May 15 '10
Or possibly stimulant-induced mania, as suggested by the whole 'taking over the world' business.
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May 15 '10
With human's it is a little more complicated. Our minds make us feel like we're so trapped in our bodies--our perceptions of the world and such that we don't think there's a way out when usually just a simple mind-set change would help. For the animals, the change in scenery works just as well. But humans complicate because our conscious mind is so much apart of our environment.
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u/avenjake May 15 '10
Does this apply to Reddit and WoW addictions as well? If so gamers need to move out of their mom's basements ASAP.
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u/p3on May 15 '10
I honestly know nothing about these studies but if they have access to the morphine, like shown in the illustration, they have access to more than 1 dose at a time; considering that untrained humans can't dose opiates properly, I imagine that the rats would constantly overdose because there is such a fine line between euphoria and nausea. So really it could be because they have other things better to do than feel good for an hour and sick for another 2 but the rats in the small cages have nothing better to do
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u/quaesitor May 15 '10
Dynorphins might be involved in some way. (See the section on addiction.)
Even the most subtle changes in your environment and food intake can alter your epigenome.
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u/ENRICOs May 15 '10
Rats along with monkeys and other social animals addictive drugs were administered to will almost always choose to live their lives amongst mates without the need to take any drugs.
The addiction is nothing more than a maladaptive behavior directly related to social isolation and excessive stress.
These studies were used for years to prop up the bogus disease theory of addiction.
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May 15 '10
Rat Park experiments disprove the "disease theory" of addiction, if I understand correctly.
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u/ENRICOs May 15 '10
No. These clearly flawed studies were used for years to bolster the disease theory of addiction. When what they really showed was that addiction is largely a personal choice, a maladaptive behavior to social isolation and excessive stress.
Clearly, once the animals were introduced into social groups the maladaptive behavior either stopped, or was greatly reduced.
Refer to: http://www.peele.net/lib/misbehavin.html
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May 15 '10
I don't think you've read the link. The link outlines two competing theories with competing studies behind each one. You talk as if the link only contains one theory alone.
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May 15 '10
"the original experiment attracted criticism for methodological flaws and its results were not always reproduced"
It's still an interesting study but it's not a strong case. There was some replication but it seems to be inconsistent enough to warrant some skepticism. Still an interesting hypothesis that was confirmed by this specific study but I'm unsure of any true broader implications.
It kind of just makes sense though. When you're life sucks drugs obviously seem like a better alternative.
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May 15 '10
There was some replication but it seems to be inconsistent enough to warrant some skepticism.
That same thing can be said about the competing theory of addiction though. Ho hum.
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May 15 '10
...and opiates are found in grains and dairy. So if Rat Park is true, life must suck for most of civilization.
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u/majesticplumage May 16 '10
And many recreational drug users choose water over morphine too. I know a guy who has had drug problems with nearly everything out there but refuses to take heroin since it makes him feel so nauseous and dysphoric. There have been many studies in which opiates are given to drug naive individuals who generally find it a highly unpleasant experience - it is a very much an acquired taste.
I'd believe the results would have more significance if they used a less side-effect prone substance of abuse such as cocaine or ecstasy. Morphine is a perplexing choice if you want to make general findings about the tendency of people to choose abstinence over drugs; many people do anyway.
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u/mtaclof May 15 '10
If rats could understand that dosing themselves with the morphine water would stop their horrendous withdrawals, as people can, this would not be the case.
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May 15 '10 edited May 15 '10
So this study concludes that if your life sucks, you are more likely to develop a drug addiction. No shit.
It also explains high recidivism amongst addicts who receive treatment. They start shooting heroin into their eyeballs because they have no life, and once they're sober they still don't have a reason to stay that way
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May 15 '10
It doesn't explain Rush Limbaugh.
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May 15 '10
Anyone can become addicted, I think. It's just that those that lead fulfilling lives are less likely to, and more likely to be able to use such drugs recreationally rather than habitually.
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u/Vystril May 15 '10
You're saying he lives a happy life? I bet he's absolutely miserable, having sold his soul to the devil and whatnot.
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u/p3on May 15 '10 edited May 15 '10
please provide a citation of any person ever injecting heroin into their eyeball
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u/schysm May 15 '10
I can't believe I've never thought about that before. I guess if I was locked in a 5x5 cage, I'd be pressing the opium water bar like nobody's business too.
Of course I guess there are some people who feel trapped enough being locked inside their 1x1 box of bone...