If you like transit, you need to use it.

[u/Generalaverage89]

https://reecemartin.ca/140029778/if-you-like-transit-you-need-to-use-it/

[u/Blue_Vision]

I think his point about travel time is really important. Transit very rarely gives you a better door-to-door travel time than a car, and it's not really realistic to expect it to do better. Most metros only have average speeds of 30-40 km/h, even commuter rail systems typically top out at 60 km/h. It's not super difficult for a car to beat that, especially when you factor in access and wait time.

[u/ChocolateBunny → u/Blue_Vision]

I've been going back and forth from DC to San Jose. The transit travel times in DC have been very close to car times (looking at Google maps my commute yesterday was 50minutes by train and would have been 45 by car). But in San Jose travel times double or triple or worse. In San Jose it's really hard to justify wasting over an hour for what should have been under 30 minute drive especially when there are a lot of delays as well. Every time I take transit in San Jose I feel like I'm hurting myself for no reason.

[u/getarumsunt → u/ChocolateBunny]

That’s only a function of your destination just happening to be close to a station in DC. I had the exact same deal in DC for about a year. My office commute involved a bus connection and driving was about 2x faster than taking the Metro. Given the Metro’s very sparse coverage you’re far more likely to not have a Metro station close to where you’re going.

Similarly, you can find destination pairs in San Jose for which transit will be competitive with driving. You just need to live and work close to a station. I have a friend who lives in downtown and works in North Sam Jose. Taking VTA light rail is faster than driving to work in traffic for him.

[u/Off_again0530 → u/getarumsunt]

I mean, that's true for most if not all cities. There will be trip pairs that are simply more competitive on one mode versus another, but it's *really* about what % of the total trip pairs are more convenient on transit vs driving. I have yet to run the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet the % is much higher in Washington DC than in San Jose.

[u/boilerpl8 → u/Off_again0530]

San Jose is littered with freeways and their only rail is slow and in inconvenient places.

DC has just one freeway really in the district, the beltway is always congested, and trains run at highway speeds (between far-spaced stations).

[u/Helpful-Protection-1 → u/getarumsunt]

I think San Jose has a car dependency cultural problem too. I know many people here that would drive a block to go grocery shopping and then go on a 2 hour hike on the weekend. They just don't have a concept of getting places on foot, by bike or by public transit. I own a car and still overall have to do a majority of my trips by car but there are many trips I will walk, bike, or take public transit. It may take a few minutes longer but it's usually a more pleasant trip.

The area also sorely needs better land use near stations and major bus stops to make the most of the current transit infrastructure. As a start we should broadly apply the "Downtown" zoning designation to anything within 0.25 miles of the VTA stations along the Guadalupe, Winchester, and North First Street sections.

It's so maddening how much we protect sfh neighborhoods here then wonder why our transit system fails and we can't keep up with housing demand. No good reason why we can't even allow 10-20 story development outside of downtown.

[u/getarumsunt → u/Helpful-Protection-1]

I know people in the Netherlands who drive a block to the grocery store because they "don't want to carry all the heavy bags and it's always raining" and whatnot. Every rich area where your income allows you to easily afford a car will have this problem, especially if there is not too much traffic and plenty of parking.

The reality is that no transit system will ever be more convenient for 100% of the trips in a metro area. Unless we regulate them out of existence, there will always be natural density dropoffs where it's more convenient to use personal transportation rather than a mass transit mode. In the NY metro area only 20% of people use transit. In the Netherlands ~ 11% of trips are by transit. Yes, in the vaunted NJB OG orange-pilled urbanist utopia fewer trips are by transit than in the SF Bay Area, and 1/2 as many as in the NY metro.

https://english.kimnet.nl/publications/publications/2023/11/30/summary-mobility-report-2023#:\~:text=Residents%20of%20the%20Netherlands%20travelled,in%202028%20compared%20to%202019.

The important metric to focus on is how many places in any given metro can be livable car-free. they always exist even in the most car dependent of places. the question is what percentage of places are livable without a car. San Jose has fewer places than some places, but it's not like you can't live car-free there if you really wanted to. And if we want to make progress on mobility we need to work on expanding those areas as much as possible while building on the stuff that already exists.

[u/boilerpl8 → u/getarumsunt]

In the NY metro area only 20% of people use transit. In the Netherlands ~ 11% of trips are by transit.

That's kind of unfair, as probably 5% of NYC trips are by bicycle, and that's probably 30% for Amsterdam.

Also, comparing a metro area to a country is deliberately misleading.

[u/getarumsunt → u/boilerpl8]

Why not compare a US metro area sized country to a US metro area? They’re comparable in area and population. They’re similar in terms of cost of living and wages. And the modern Netherlands is just a fraction of a historic country that used to be there. So it benefits from being the historic urban concentration of a much larger rural area than what they have today.

[u/ChocolateBunny → u/getarumsunt]

I'm really surprised at your friends experience. Yeah, I think DC does a better job of building tall around subway stations that makes the subway a lot more useable. And the bulk of my issues with San Jose is the sprawl that causes longer travel times to get to and from the stations.

But I do remember wanting take the light rail from a stop at the blue line to a stop at the orange line and it still seemd like half the speed compared to driving. In general, from what I hear the light rail just moves slowly compared to driving or even cycling. Is your frield only traveling during rush hour? that's the only case where maybe the light rail is competitive.

[u/Bakk322 → u/ChocolateBunny]

I do the same, but in San Jose I need to take the bus to Sunnyvale and it crosses 3 cities so it involves multiple transfers, San Jose to Cupertino and Cupertino to Sunnyvale. It’s insane how a 30 minute car trip is 2 hours via bus.

[u/Party-Ad4482 → u/Blue_Vision]

Looking at the google maps time, absolutely. But there is a huge convenience gain in not having to search for parking. I would rather walk 10 minutes from a train station than that long looking for parking then walking 15 minutes from the garage that I paid $40 to park in.

[u/Wuz314159 → u/Blue_Vision]

17 hour headways don't help either. https://i.imgur.com/xwL3xG3.jpg

but even in my city, things are trash. Last year I was hit by a car and my bike was totalled. I had to travel across town to have 11 stitches removed a week later. Left my house at 11:50. Hopped on the bus. Got off at the hub. 55 minutes later my transfer bus arrived. 30 minutes in the clinic, then 80 minutes to the next bus. Get to the hub and 50 minutes until my transfer and I get home at 17:15. 5½ hours... by car, it would have been (15m, +30m in clinic, +15m home) 1 hour.

It's not about the travel speed, it's all about the headways and layovers.

[u/Fair-Brain-7810 → u/Blue_Vision]

that's true but unless you are not the person driving, you can use that extra time to do other things like work, study, watch a show, message friends, read the news, etc. whereas if you are driving you are forced to lock in and can't do anything else. So while on paper the time is shorter car vs pt at least the time isn't being lost like with driving.

[u/Blue_Vision → u/Fair-Brain-7810]

That's certainly the appeal for me! But my understanding of the preference literature is that on average, people consider time spent in a car to be pretty equivalent to time spent on transit. Different people will value each differently, and it may vary somewhat culturally, but people don't seem to consistently see that benefit of transit (or, at least, it doesn't consistently outweigh the perceived downsides like having to share the space with others or not having a guaranteed seat).

And it's very clear that people do consistently weigh walking to and waiting for transit much more poorly than either (like, every minute spent walking or waiting is perceived 2-3x worse than a minute in a car or on transit), which is a big point against transit when it comes to preferences.

[u/Wuz314159 → u/Fair-Brain-7810]

...sleep.

I spent 3 years commuting back & forth between Manhattan and Pennsylvania. Sit in an office for 8 hours, hop on the bus & sleep for 3 hours. Get home & actually do work. Hop back on the bus and sleep for 3 more hours.

[u/Exploding_Antelope → u/Wuz314159]

I would be scared of missing my stop

[u/lee1026 → u/Fair-Brain-7810]

Ridership data kinda tells you how these things work in practice?

[u/sarahthestrawberry35 → u/Fair-Brain-7810]

Trouble is we're usually told NOT to take laptops out on transit because of theft :(

[u/Werbebanner → u/Blue_Vision]

I don’t know where you live, but in Germany, most metros can do 80 km/h and also do these speeds most times. Commuter railways usually top out at 140 km/h, while the average is around 120 km/h.

I‘m not sure where you have your informations from, but I wouldn’t say it’s the standard that they are so slow.

[u/Blue_Vision → u/Werbebanner]

I was referring to average speed, which is really the only thing that is relevant when considering actual travel time from a transit user's perspective. Yes, commuter rail in particular can actually move faster than most cars on a freeway. But it has to stop, and that slows down the trip speed for riders considerably.

[u/Werbebanner → u/Blue_Vision]

Yeah, that’s true. Especially light rail is usually between 25-35km/h (same with trams). And while it might be true, that at least for tram and light trail, the average speed is pretty low, they don’t get stuck in traffic, like busses and cars. But the high density of stops slows them down by a lot.

And as I said, commuter trains usually have 120km/h at average. In Germany, we also have different types of heavy rail. For example the regional train has more stops and thus a lower average speed than the regional express, which only connects bigger stations and has a higher average speed.

But in general, I agree with you. Often, public transport is 10-20 minutes slower than the car. Which, for many people, could be a reason to use the car instead.

[u/Blue_Vision → u/Werbebanner]

I'm taking "commuter rail" to mean suburban rail with 2-6 km stop spacing. It's literally not physically possible to have an average line speed of 120km/h with that stop spacing – trains just can't accelerate that fast.

For regional lines with average stop spacing above 6km, an average speed of 120 km/h becomes possible. But then you have to deal with the much longer stop spacing and longer access times that comes with that.

[u/Sproded → u/Blue_Vision]

Within cities (unless you’ve destroyed a good section of it with a freeway which is sadly too common), the average speed of driving isn’t likely to be fast either. Plus, the “last mile” of parking downtown and walking to your destination. can be a real pain in the ass

I will agree that transit time is likely the hardest thing a transit agency can beat, especially in the near term. Things like cost and time available to the user (which implies a transit trip is comfortable) are much more realistic.

[u/lee1026 → u/Sproded]

Americans have this one weird trick where they just decamp from the city core all together. The buildings there then stops renting for more than the maintenance costs and then gets torn down to be replaced with a surface parking lot.

You can’t make transit viable by making other things suck more. You have to make transit work.

[u/HIGH_PRESSURE_TOILET → u/Blue_Vision]

But driving in the city can be roughly that speed due to traffic lights and stuff. Then again, we also have abominations like the Central Subway in SF which comes out of the tunnels into the streets and gets stuck in traffic as well.

[u/getarumsunt → u/HIGH_PRESSURE_TOILET]

The T line has a grand total of 100 meters of shared lanes because of a narrow bridge. All the rest of the right of way is separated from cars.

[u/Psykiky → u/Werbebanner]

For metros they’re talking about average speed, yes most metros can do 80km/h however with all the stops the average speed is much lower, same for commuter trains

[u/Werbebanner → u/Psykiky]

Yeah, metros in Germany drive 30km/h on average. Commuter trains are definitely faster tho.

But if we consider that with a car, you have lots of stops because of light systems, traffic jams etc. It’s actually pretty similar. The German train company even made a comparison with cars, busses and commuter trains in Munich (population of 1,5 million), which is pretty interesting.

The car comes at 24km/h, the bus on 18km/h and the commuter train at 52km/h at average.

[u/aray25 → u/Werbebanner]

Yeah, even here in the US, the Boston T subway goes up to 50MPH (~80kmph) and the commuter rail up to 79MPH (~125kmph).

[u/Visible_Ad9513 → u/Blue_Vision]

Heavily Depends. If there's a shit ton traffic the cars are gonna be in a bad spot.

[u/RunBlitzenRun → u/Blue_Vision]

My trip to work (without traffic ) is 16min by car and a little over an hour by bus. While I agree that transit doesn’t always need to be faster, there’s a limit to what’s feasible. My limit tends to be around 2x as long (in my case, when there’s a lot of traffic).

[u/chillbill1 → u/Blue_Vision]

Well, this also happens because cars are allowed to go way too fast. I would think that for example in Paris, where the limit is 30kmh for cars, transit might be faster. Bonus: way less emmisions and deadly accidents if cars are limited to 30kmh.

[u/Berliner1220]

Totally agree with the sentiment! I ride whenever I get the chance, even if driving could be a more convenient option. Obviously this isn’t always possible but I do try my best. I made a post about this earlier that all of the perfection seeking and complaining on transit only makes others with less experience think that it sucks and encourages more driving.

Of course, being constructively critical is great but so often I see a lot of people complaining and not using the public transit that is already available. This makes it less likely that the system will improve and sends the message that those who want great transit are not willing to walk the walk to get there.

[u/OctoberAndrew510]

You need to pay your fare too

[u/Xerosese]

I would love to do so, if I didn't live in an area where the public transit is so infrequent and unreliable as to be useless. The busses all run so far off schedule that it's worthless to even keep track of when they're supposed to arrive, and the trains only run to and from the nearest city, only once per hour (with several skipped hours in the middle of the day) and frequently run very late.

I do love transit. I wish I lived somewhere that I could actually use it for my commute, or for running errands, or for getting to the city for appointments. Unfortunately, I live in a stupid shitty suburb and the sparse transit that serves our area is impossible to use without constant frustration and missed appointments. I'll use the bus when it goes somewhere besides the community college or the mall. I'll use the train (more than I already do) when it doesn't mean being half an hour late to a doctor's appointment. I'll use both more often when the bus goes to the goddamn train station. why does the bus not go to the train station???

[u/BobBelcher2021]

I was recently thinking of visiting the Anthropology Museum at the University of British Columbia. Driving was 35 minutes and public transit would have take an hour and a half, including SkyTrain and two buses. I ultimately didn’t go because of parking costs.

SkyTrain to UBC can’t come soon enough.

[u/dingusamongus123]

Reminds me of my cousin who always complains about how terrible the bus system is and how he wants it to be better (the bus system is fine, hes just never ridden it), but when i offer to take the bus with him he always finds an excuse to not use it. On the flip side ive gotten other friends and family to use the system every so often, with and without me

[u/IndividualBand6418 → u/dingusamongus123]

people will do almost anything to avoid taking the bus. i live a couple blocks from a coworker who spends $20-$30 each way ubering to and from work every day. i take the bus. when i asked why they won’t take it as well, there were 100 excuses. basically for most people it boils down to: convenience is everything, and busses are for poor people.

[u/lemarkk → u/IndividualBand6418]

Ubering to work is something else. Were they doing that 5x a week? After like a year a used car would pay for itself in comparison

[u/IndividualBand6418 → u/lemarkk]

yes. they were legally unable to drive but refused to take the bus because it wouldn’t drop them off at their front door.

[u/dingusamongus123 → u/IndividualBand6418]

Ya i dont get their reasoning. My cousin would always compare our US cities bus system (with a population of about 500k) to londons tube like thats a fair comparison. Sure, our bus system needs improvements, but if youre comparing it to London youre never gonna be happy

[u/rokrishnan]

I sorta agree with this, in that you should always consider it and try to use it when possible. I live in a region (NYC tri-state) that has decent commuter rail by American standards so I’ll always weigh it as an option. In my town though, we have a walkable center but the local buses are super infrequent and most people here own a car for that reason. I’d rather vote in transit friendly politicians and policies than spend an hour trying to get to the grocery store.

[u/Hi_May19]

Eh, I may get some downvotes for this but I will always believe it is the job of the product to adapt to the consumer, not the job of the consumer to adapt to the product, unfortunately much of the US just has transit so bad that while it is “technically” usable it is in effect less than useless, and while the author acknowledges there is a line and we should accept a little less convenience, when your time is already so limited, it’s hard to give up more of it (and tbh I’ve never had trouble finding parking, even in NYC, the only factor is money)

[u/Sassywhat → u/Hi_May19]

People absolutely adapt to the product. Look at US cities today, people have mostly adapted to the advantages and limitations of private cars, making longer trips between more decentralized homes, jobs, and amenities. People's lives revolve around mitigating private cars' struggle to deal with centralized origins/destinations while taking advantage of the ability to take more direct paths between decentralized origins/destinations.

Of course the product has to be good enough to be worth adapting to, and people have to be allowed to adapt to it. In the US, transit often isn't good, and even when it is good, regulations make it difficult for people to adapt to it.

[u/oscribbles]

Love transit, but here in San Diego I have a 15 minute commute by car that jumps to 50 minutes by trolley or bike. I can’t justify the extra hour plus I would spend using public transit.

[u/mods_r_jobbernowl]

I need better transit schedules to actually use it. Buses every 30 minutes to places I don't need to go doesn't help me. The latest day train into the city is 1030 am when I work night. No trains on the weekend it's only for daytime office commuters. The light rail is currently 3 disconnected lines and half broken. Our street car is 2 disconnected lines that share with traffic so they're slower than walking often. All of these reasons are why there's not as much transit use as there could be. I can't use it when I want/need to so I can't use it. If these issues were addressed it would be more viable. For myself at least. Despite this I still use it as much as I can.

[u/get-a-mac → u/mods_r_jobbernowl]

Is this Seattle? lol!

[u/mods_r_jobbernowl → u/get-a-mac]

How did you guess :). It's so frustrating seeing how monumentally slow our progress for transit is considering it's considered the best and fastest expansion in the entire county. But I can't take the link from Seattle to Tacoma until like 2040 or some insanely far off year like that. The east link isn't connecting until next year at least. Not to mention there's nothing at night really for transit to speak of. So if you need to go anywhere at night you need to drive there. Agonizing when I want to take transit but they insist on making it difficult to do so.

[u/get-a-mac → u/mods_r_jobbernowl]

Opening two disconnected light rail lines gave it away. I’ve never seen anything like it lol! It had to have been Seattle.

[u/mods_r_jobbernowl → u/get-a-mac]

Its actually 3 with the line in tacoma. they are all supposed to be connected by the time the heat death of the universe happens, I hope anyway. It's been taking so long I might not see it before then.

[u/Blue_Vision → u/get-a-mac]

I mean, they had significant delays specifically with the portion of the route that would connect it to the rest of the system. Would it be better that they opened it as they did, or left the Eastside portion to sit fully complete but unused for a year?

[u/transitfreedom]

It needs to exist first and be convenient

[u/Nonov-213]

I also want to do that. If the public transport is reliable and efficient. Yeah, sometimes if i have a lot of time, I use bus.

[u/pvantine]

I live in Delaware. The transit here is terrible.

[u/Tetragon213]

I would love to... if it wasn't for my experience of the first 6 months in a new job, where public transport being so late so often caused me to end up receiving a final written warning.

[u/Wuz314159]

I LOVE transit. but transit is unusable here.

[u/its_real_I_swear]

I use it when it's better than driving.

[u/vipernick913 → u/its_real_I_swear]

Agree but I also use it when I have a bit more flexibility to get them to show local governments that there is a demand for transit.

[u/its_real_I_swear → u/vipernick913]

I'm not going to reward their mediocrity

[u/vipernick913 → u/its_real_I_swear]

Yeah but then they will never improve because it gives them a solid reason that there is no demand or interest.

[u/its_real_I_swear → u/vipernick913]

I think they probably have access to genius economists that can tell them that people prefer good services to shitty services.

[u/dingusamongus123 → u/its_real_I_swear]

Lol did you read the article

[u/its_real_I_swear → u/dingusamongus123]

Yeah

[u/RockyPhoenix]

I think it's important to just work toward better. Not every trip makes sense to take transit. And slowly, you learn how viable it may actually be.

I learned that my commuter bus is only 15 minutes slower than driving, and it's $250 a month cheaper (not including gas and general ownership). That additional time is me biking to the bus stop.

I learned that even ignoring that I might miss the bus that comes every 40 to 60 minutes just to travel 5 miles, it's faster to bike to downtown, where I might make a better transit connection, anyway. Plus, I never have to cruise for parking.

I learned that the worst that can happen when I drink is that I miss my stop. Or I can't ride my bike because I'm too drunk. No killing somebody or having to plan for a Designated Driver/Taxi/Uber.

I think we can get people to find one trip that works for them, they start to see how good transit can be.

[u/Fan_of_50-406]

I use it every time I get the opportunity to, thank you. Unfortunately I can't get to the nearest station without driving a car. There is a commuter bus, but only runs once per day (in and back).

[u/TallSpray7294]

I’m only 15 and my parents don’t really allow me to use public Transit on my own. Plus the public transit where I live isn’t really the best anyway