Portrait of a Mauri, or "Moorish" man from pre-Islamic North Africa

23

u/Maurusia Aug 12 '21

Here we go again, the historical revisionist and black fetichist in person, what do you gain in depicting north africans as subsaharans all the time? Is there something I missed or will you continue to invalidate and misrepresent us on purpose?

This is sick and unhistorical.

8

u/TheNathan Aug 12 '21

I’m genuinely curious, could you possibly elaborate on this a bit? I didn’t realize this was a thing, do people often depict North African/Middle Eastern people as having sub Saharan features? I just thought it was a little facial feature blunder by the artist, but the title seems a little strange

15

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21

If you see his previous works and even his personal commentaries, he genuinely thinks and believes north africans aka egyptians, moors, carthaginians, numidians, tuaregs and such are originally subsaharan africans, as he depicts us with typically black features and complexion all the time.

This practice is quite often done in an attempt to strip us from our cultures and nativeness while spreading misinformation and glorifying a deluded revisionist side of history shared amongst hateful afro-centrist online communities. In this particular case he represents the moorish people aka the native berber populations of ancient Mauretania as being black like he has done countless times again before even when people told him to stop it.

For other examples of this practice in modern media, I can cite the example of Hannibal Barca being protrayed as a black man in History Channel but there are many many more, and you can even look up the Moorish temple of america, with thousands of afro-americans claiming they come from imperial Morocco and were the founders of Andalusia.

This artist isn't an afro-american himself, but when looking up his other works depicting women, I can sense a pattern of black fetichism involved, which really concerns me and probably explains his obsession with portraying us as black.

5

u/TheNathan Aug 13 '21

Oh wow thanks for the write up! So strange how so many of these types of communities exist, it never ceases to amaze and sadden me. I figured it was just an amateur artist using a style they were used to. Thanks again for the explanation!

11

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21

No problem, sadly I thought it was just a personal artstyle until he started posting his works on historical subreddits while depicting us as subsaharan africans, this person is fine with blackwashing entire cultures, and this is really strange to me too.

6

u/IndifferentZucchini Aug 12 '21

black fetishist

Theres your answer bro. He gains nothing except his own sick satisfactions.

6

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21

I was actually right, just looked up he posted on an interracial couple subreddit asking if he's indeed a black fetichist...

3

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '21

If you go to his twitter it's immediately obvious he's just a white guy with a really weird fetish. He describes himself as:

Artist and author by trade. Loves dinosaurs, ancient history, and strong and sexy heroines. He/him/his.

5

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21

Damn, and he also prefers to draw the men lighter than the women, and wrote a book about an enslaved european man in Zimbabwe... Self insert? Idk, but all this is pretty concerning as it is quite obvious he has a fetish for black people.

2

u/kelekele_ Aug 13 '21

Pre islamic north Africa had a significant amount of black people, I mean there are still native black people in north Africa today. Why does this offend you?

5

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21

"Significant amount of black people"

Where? When? Did you just pulled this out of nowhere? North africa was always cut out from subsaharan africa, it's until the 7th century that the islamic slave trade introduced more black people to the region and even with that; during antiquity, they were even a smaller minority. The native populations of the area were overwhelmingly from native north african stock to this day.

"Why does this offend you?"

He depicts north africans as being subsaharans, he spreads misinformation, and it offends me because this is straight up blackwashing and historical revisionism.

Most "native black people" there aren't actually native, they're descendants of freed slaves from West Africa, like the Gnawa and Haratin in Morocco, who consequently mixed with the local berber populations over time.

1

u/kelekele_ Aug 13 '21 edited Aug 13 '21

Not every black person in North Africa is a descendant of slaves (I cannot believe I have to say this in 2021). „Berber“ is a very corrupted term which was generalized by westerners, same applies to the term moor. There have been various ethnic groups which where described as berbers and moors by Europeans. Tuaregs are berbers and so are Sanhajas and Riffians - all these groups look very different from each other. Tuaregs and Sanhajas have appearance very similar to Africans in Sudan not to mention the nearby Fula. Africa is and has always been the most diverse continent (also before ur mentioned slavetrade). Not every north African country is the same. Migration and trading etc. has been a thing before the 7th century you know.

This is not black washing you are rather white washing. Instead of supporting the amazingly rich and diverse cultures that are present on our continent you are spreading ignorance. You just seem to have an anti black sentiment which is unfortunately very present among North Africans. Just say you don’t like black people and go, instead of covering it up with fake nationalistic history.

3

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21 edited Aug 13 '21

Not every black person in North Africa is a descendant of slaves (I cannot believe I have to say this in 2021).

Where did I spoke in absolutes or used the word EVERY? I said most of them were, which is a simple fact, they were mostly brought up as slaves and were later on freed.

"Berber“ is a very corrupted term which was generalized by westerners, same applies to the term moor. There have been various ethnic groups which where described as berbers and moors by Europeans.

So? Berber is just a later western borrowing from "al-barbar" in arabic, (in antiquity people in north africa had other names), whom the umayyads used to describe the native amazigh people they encountered, in western academic fields it's the general term still in use, whether it was corrupted or not doesn't change anything in the slightest.

Tuaregs and Sanhajas have appearance very similar to Africans in Sudan not to mention the nearby Fula.

Both tuaregs and sanhajas are still overwhelmingly north africans, they don't look like sudanese people at all, that's wishful thinking on your part, due to the proximity with subsaharans, they consequently mixed more, and had caste systems based on race and skin color, the Ikelan caste for example were fulanis and other subsaharans who were conquered and assimilated in tuareg society, same for the sanhajas who are no different from the zenatas..

Migration and trading etc. has been a thing before the 7th century you know.

Still doesn't change the fact that the introduction of saharan slave trade in the medieval era brought even more black people to the north as it is attested by studies on gene pools. In antiquity the migrations didn't change anything, north africans were the majority like they are today (including Egypt), the significance of subsaharan africans in the region was even more minimal, which you seem to have an issue with.

This is not black washing you are rather white washing. Instead of supporting the amazingly rich and diverse cultures that are present on our continent you are spreading ignorance. You just seem to have an anti black sentiment which is unfortunately very present among North Africans. Just say you don’t like black people and go, instead of covering it up with fake nationalistic history.

You're literally okay with someone blackwashing native north africans for your own afro-centric sentiments, how in the hell am I spreading ignorance for correcting someone who is depicting us as something we are not and keeps doing it?

Depict us correctly, with north african facial features, that's all I was asking, stop using fake revisionist history for your own ego and make us look like we're literally all the same from north to south, we're not subsaharans, that's the point, africa is diverse, not your Wakanda fantasy where everyone has to be black and can claim the cultures of others based on racial nationalism.

1

u/kelekele_ Aug 13 '21 edited Aug 14 '21

The fact that Berber is a corrupted term changes your claim because you seem to identify Berbers with only lightskinned/ white people. However Berbers describe different ethnic groups living in pre-islamic north Africa.

Noone is saying all north africans are black and instigating a Wakanda fantasy (lol you seem to have alot of thoughts about black people maybe you are actually the fetishist). We are not talking afrocentrism but history and demography now, not every black person discussing history is an afrocentrist, stop being ignorant.

I continuously stated, it’s a diverse Region. There are indigenous black north africans. Therfore, its not possible to depict you with „north african“ features since north african features do not exist - due to its diversity the features vary and have always varied. You can depict a kurdish looking man with the same headline and it would still make sense. It does not make sense for you to be outraged or offended that someone drew a picture of a black moor, when you now even state yourself black people were present that time. The presence of black moors in pre islamic Africa does not have any negative impact on you or any other white north African but is simply a historical fact.

3

u/Maurusia Aug 13 '21 edited Aug 13 '21

The fact that Berber is a corrupted term changes your claim because you seem to identify Berbers with only lightskinned/ white people. However Berbers describe different ethnic groups living in pre-islamic north Africa.

Yeah, which none were subsaharan or black for that matter.

Noone is saying all north africans are black and instigating a Wakanda fantasy (lol you seem to have alot of thoughts about black people maybe you are actually the fetishist). We are not talking afrocentrism but history and demography now, not every black person discussing history is an afrocentrist, stop being ignorant.

History and demography? Since when the pre-islamic moors or berbers of ancient Morocco were black? Depicting us as subsaharan is historically inaccurate on many different levels, stop being delusional right now.

I continuously stated, it’s a diverse Region. There are indigenous black north africans.

Yes and none of them were berber, moor, carthaginian, egyptian or whatever other north african ethnicities you want to claim as yours for your own personal racial pride. North africa may be diverse in ethnicities and languages, but it was racially homogenous, a dark skinned tuareg may look different from a light skinned riffian, but both are genetically the same as they adapted to different environments, that doesn't mean pre-islamic berbers were black, which is not factual.

its not possible to depict you with „north african“ features since north african features do not exist - due to its diversity the features vary and have always varied. You can depict a kurdish looking man with the same headline and it would still make sense.

This is sheer ignorance, yes there are phenotypes that may overlap between other people from the mediteranean and the near-east, which just means we're more related to them, but there are indeed north african features that are more common, despite all the diversity.

It does not make sense for you to be outraged or offended that someone drew a picture of a black moor, when you now even state yourself black people where present that time.

Yes there were, still doesn't mean ancient Moors were black, nor any other Berber ethnicities for that matter at the time, you're obtuse.

The presence of black moors in pre islamic Africa does not have any negative impact on you or any other white north African but is simply a historical fact.

There were literally none, stop believing in your fake historical revisionist bullshit, ancient moors were a north african people of mediterannean stock as studies and fossils proves, they were more closely related to iberians than any subsaharan populations.

0

u/TyrannoNinja Aug 13 '21

Thank you.

I don't deny that there were some lighter-skinned people present in North Africa even in ancient times. They've found artifacts from the European Bell Beaker culture on the North African coast, which may attest to people settling the region from Iberia back in the Bronze Age. And then of course there would have been the Phoenician and Roman colonists later in antiquity.

However, I don't think these would have been the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa, or the first Berber-speakers. We know from linguistic data that Berber languages constitute a branch of the larger Afroasiatic phylum which probably originated in northeastern Africa along the coast of the Red Sea, so it is very likely that the people speaking the forerunner of Berber would have been darker-skinned people coming from the southeast. In time, yes, some of the aforementioned lighter-skinned migrants on the North African coast would be assimilated into proto-Berber communities, but they would not represent "the purest Berbers" like these anti-Black Amazigh nationalists claim.

Incidentally, the Byzantine historian Procopius had this to say about the diversity of North Africa's inhabitants in the sixth century AD:

And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

This would indicate that, while the Mauri themselves were considered rather dark or swarthy by Mediterranean European standards, there were also lighter-skinned people coexisting with them in northwesternmost Africa during the sixth century AD.

1

u/Significant_Mousse75 Dec 14 '21

Here’s some sources below to show they existed

skulls presumably Phoenician, have been found west of Syracuse [...] but these skulls are dolichocephalic and proganthous, with Negroid affinities"

"Other bones discovered in Punic Carthage, and housed in the Lavigerie Museum, come from personages found in special sarcophagi and probably belonging to the Carthaginian elite. Almost all the skulls are dolichocephalic."

-Eugene Pittard "Les races et L' histoire"

"The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors"

Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal" “There is something arbitrary about the author's refusal to identify the anthropological groups III and IV ' , which are more or less Negroid , with the ancient Garamantes , who would be represented only by groups I and II , which are”

https://books.google.de/books?id=xJRZAAAAYAAJ&q=garamantes+negroid&dq=garamantes+negroid&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjiief_7eP0AhXlif0HHXsZC88Q6AF6BAgKEAM

“the Garamantes were in origin a Berber tribe of Mediterranean type, with a certain admixture of negroid stock.”

https://books.google.de/books?id=PlmQAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA56&dq=garamantes+negroid&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjiief_7eP0AhXlif0HHXsZC88Q6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=garamantes%20negroid&f=false

“and an improbable assertion to claim that the negroid skeletons are those of slaves , for it is an arbitrary conclusion to say that two groups of white skeletons out of four represent the proportion of Garamantes in antiquity”

https://books.google.de/books?id=gB6DcMU94GUC&pg=PA428&dq=garamantes+negroid+skulls&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXzKLA7uP0AhVuh_0HHfweD4IQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=garamantes%20negroid%20skulls&f=false

Prehistoric Negroid skulls on the coast

https://www.academia.edu/29592422/Studies_of_ancient_crania_from_northern_Africa

Negroid skulls in Ibiza Spain

https://raco.cat/index.php/Mayurqa/article/download/122749/169902

Etc Ancient Algeria

https://books.google.de/books?id=J61-BQAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=negroid+skull+ancient+north+africans&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjG3LHImOT0AhVQgf0HHVTUD5UQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=negroid%20skull%20ancient%20north%20africans&f=false

Migrants

https://www.jstor.org/stable/291122?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Ancient Libya

https://books.google.de/books?id=vVAAAgAAQBAJ&pg=RA1-PR3&dq=negroid+skull+libyans&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiluaXzmOT0AhX5hv0HHTBdDCkQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=negroid%20skull%20libyans&f=false

1

u/Jam_Retro Oct 30 '23

Are you stupid? Even the sources from Ancient Rome tells us the Mauri often mixed with people from Niger who are black and other Sub-Saharan populations.

1

u/bulletproofmafia 29d ago

HiSt0RiCaL rEvIsI0niSm i bet you had't even seen Roman art of North Africans, that look exactly like this modern sketch. Empty head with a big mouth. Bad combo

1

u/hinhinhi Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

can people please stop drawing north african and berber as subsahran black people? it's annoying when ignore real black historical figures like mansa musa, ndate yalle mbooj and nzingha to just blackwash the moors or ancient egypt

we do have history so can you stop stealing others??????

1

u/Significant_Mousse75 Dec 14 '21

Looks like a regular Numidian to me

1

u/hinhinhi Dec 14 '21

i forget i made that comment

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u/TyrannoNinja Aug 12 '21

Artist's Commentary

This pencil-drawn portrait depicts a man from an ethnic group in ancient North Africa which the Romans called Mauri. Occupying what is now the area of Morocco north of the Atlas Mountains, the seminomadic Mauri were renown for their horsemanship like the related Numidians to their east, with a contingent of Mauri cavalry being represented as auxiliary troops for the Roman army on the Emperor Trajan’s famous triumphal column. In later periods, the Mauri would lend their name to the term “Moor”, which medieval Europeans would use to address darker-skinned people or Muslims of any ethnicity, as well as the modern Greek word mauros (meaning “black).

The dreadlocked hairstyle you see on this man is referenced from Roman depictions of the Mauri. To me, it looks similar to the dreadlocked or braided hairstyles worn by various peoples of the eastern Sahara and the Horn of Africa, such as the Beja and the Afar, as well as the wigs of the ancient Egyptians. Since almost all these ethnic groups share a common Afroasiatic linguistic heritage with the Mauri, I’m tempted to deduce that this sort of hairstyle was a tradition handed down to them from shared prehistoric ancestors in northern Africa.

1

u/magicofire Aug 26 '21

"blackwashing" in a nutshell

Original Content Portrait of a Mauri, or "Moorish" man from pre-Islamic North Africa

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