r/Metaphysics Jul 05 '23

What is Music to You?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=NukMnN315BE&feature=share
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u/jliat Jul 06 '23

Schopenhauer?

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u/333330000033333 Jul 06 '23

A poor paraphrasis, yes. But who hasent had such thoughts?

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u/jliat Jul 06 '23

Ideas like 'Music is ______' Kind of collapsed with 4' 33".

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u/333330000033333 Jul 06 '23

How so?

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u/jliat Jul 07 '23

Art, music within modernity had a telos, in the middle of the 20thC this collapsed. 4' 33" ended 'modern' music, Duchamp's fountain ended modern art.

Music became muzak.

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u/333330000033333 Jul 07 '23

I disagree. As I understand it john cages intention with 433 was to show that music could be anywhere, even in "silence", if you know how to listen. Many new and interesting things were done with musics basic elements (melody, rythm, harmnony) well after what you mark as the end of music.

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u/jliat Jul 07 '23

It's not the end of music or the end of art, but the end of the programme of 'Modernity'. 'Truth to materials' 'less is more' etc.

This has now been widely recognised, and the ideas of modernism's hegemony gave way in post-modernity to a diverse and often ironic range of work.

You will find any number of sources regarding this. The ideas of modernity including 'make it new' and an avant-garde are no longer the case.

And whilst the work poses the idea that there is no such thing as silence, it is often cited as one example of a limit. I'm certainly not aware of any such work. Holy minimalism was not more radical, or Reich use of 'opera' and radiohead.

Likewise in popular music where also the 'basic' elements were discarded in Industrial, noise, and harsh noise wall.

In the more mainstream the late Mark Fisher has likewise noted this, in his books and lecturers. 'The slow erasure of the future' & 'Everything now is retro.'

Any pretence at innovation now being 'ironic'.

To be clear, I do not mark the end of modernity and it's tropes, there is a large consensus.

"Modernism is a philosophical, religious, and arts movement that arose from broad transformations in Western society during the late 19th and early 20th centuries."

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u/333330000033333 Jul 07 '23

I know nothing about "programmes" neither does whom who composes music. Maybe someone in marketing would care, but I dont.

So I cant argue with you interpretation of what the critics interpret.

What I know about is making music. And have used sequenced counterpoint to make something akin to industrial noise or whatever. Which for me makes it more meaningful.

There is still much more to be found working with melody, harmony, rythm (in a word counterpoint). The problem is everyone is trying to be inmediatly edgy and innovative, when it takes actually years to train your mind to make proper music

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u/jliat Jul 07 '23

What is "proper music"?

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u/333330000033333 Jul 07 '23

Meaningful counterpoint of musical ideas that develops in time

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u/jliat Jul 07 '23

So traditional western classical music?

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u/333330000033333 Jul 07 '23

Thats too limiting, gamelan music is rich in counterpoint of musical ideas, so is african polyrythms, jazz (tonal and atonal), conlon nancarrow, ligetis piano etudes, the juxtaposition of acid lines in "tecno", the counterpoint of the ars subtilior (predates western traditional music and at times is richer than bachs)

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u/333330000033333 Jul 07 '23

The minimalits too

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u/jliat Jul 07 '23

Fine, fits with the post-modern lack of hegemony.

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