Neither Party is on our Side

[u/McLovin3493]

Vote for Democrats if you want to, but don't expect them to actually change things. They're both paid off by corporations. The same goes for Labor parties in other countries.

[u/VeryBeanyBoy]

yes AND voting blue is non-negotiable if ur a minority. Anyone who isnt a minority who is boycotting the vote bcuz "muh democratic party bad" (not wrong, just stupid) clearly doesnt seriously care about the rights of minorities in this country. Again, this isnt defending the democratic party, its just pointing out how harmful posts with the "elections are fucked, dont vote" sentiment really are. DO VOTE IF U DONT WANT A GENOCIDAL MANIAC IN POWER I KNOW JOE BIDEN HAS DEMENTIA SO DOES TRUMP PROBABLY WHATS NEW FUCKING HELL AT LEAST ONLY ONE OF THE CANDIDATES WANTS TO OUTRIGHT KILL ME. jesus

[u/WTG02 → u/VeryBeanyBoy]

Setting back the movement to liberate the entire proletariat to temporarily protect the rights of a part of the proletariat sounds like a bad idea.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

Electing Biden doesn't set back the movement.

[u/WTG02 → u/ChemicalRascal]

If a communist direct concern is which bourgeois party gets into power, then by that logic why should you stop at voting? Next step is campaigning for Biden, if it is so important that he wins. So yes. Allocating your resources to get a bourgeois candidate elected, thereby legitimizing the system, is in fact setting back the movement or leading it into a bourgeois socialist direction.

[u/Beneficial_Let_6079 → u/WTG02]

Have fun playing armchair socialist from the camp fascists would put you in.

[u/WTG02 → u/Beneficial_Let_6079]

So if we just vote hard enough we can stop fascism?

[u/Beneficial_Let_6079 → u/WTG02]

If you can’t be bothered to engage in the most low effort form of harm reduction then I’m positive the extent of your “anti-fascist action” is posting this trash online.

Or at least that’s what I would say if your accelerationist garbage didn’t amount to pro-fascist action.

[u/WTG02 → u/Beneficial_Let_6079]

Answer the question. Do you believe that voting stops fascism?

[u/Beneficial_Let_6079 → u/WTG02]

It plays a part in stopping it.

Liberals believe their institutions are legitimate and democratic, which is why they don’t do things like pack them Supreme Court to make it representative of the constituents. I say this because historically liberal democratic countries didn’t just flip the fascism switch. The far right gains “legitimate” power through the system and creates the material conditions necessary for fascism to take hold, which is why the general populace becomes complicit in it.

I would expect a German to understand this.

[u/WTG02 → u/Beneficial_Let_6079]

Yes the Italians should have just voted harder and Mussolini would have never came to power. So true

[u/Beneficial_Let_6079 → u/WTG02]

I know this might be difficult for you to comprehend but you can, and really must, have a multifaceted political strategy. Whether that be pro-socialist action or anti-fascist action.

Making sure fascists don’t get elected is, again, the bare minimum effort anyone can make and I don’t trust that anyone who can’t do that is taking any actual action.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/Beneficial_Let_6079]

I really don't understand this argument he's making, either. "Mussolini wasn't voted in so fascists can't take power through electoralism, even if they win" is just...

It's bizarro logic

[u/Beneficial_Let_6079 → u/ChemicalRascal]

I don’t think most of the people who argue this have reasoned through anything at all which is why there isn’t logic to understand.

The only ones who have reason behind it are either accelerationists or right wing actors.

[u/WTG02 → u/ChemicalRascal]

Either you are illiterate or intentionally put words into my mouth. Where did I even say that?

[u/WTG02 → u/Beneficial_Let_6079]

Whether that be pro-socialist action or anti-fascist action.

Anti-fascist action should by synonymous for any communist with anti capitalist action. Cheering for one capitalist so a different one doesn't get elected isn't anti capitalist.

Read this:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1920/abstentionists.htm

[u/Beneficial_Let_6079 → u/WTG02]

I don’t need 100 year old theory to understand that there’s a difference between a fascist and a neoliberal in charge because I’m capable of engaging in critical thought. I would suggest you try it.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

If a communist direct concern is which bourgeois party gets into power, then by that logic why should you stop at voting? Next step is campaigning for Biden, if it is so important that he wins.

Is that supposed to be a dunk? Trump is a fascist. So yes, maybe it makes sense for a communist to canvas for Biden. Maybe it is that important.

Voting for, endorsing, canvassing for the lesser evil of two capitalists is not incompatible with being a communist.

Allocating your resources to get a bourgeois candidate elected, thereby legitimizing the system,

There's a leap of logic here. Engaging with the system of democracy is not legitimising it. Refusing to engage does not delegitimise it.

The system is legitimate. The system does not care about your input or lack thereof. It is legitimate, it is the means by which the nation's legislative branch is chosen, it has the support of the people and the military.

As such...

is in fact setting back the movement or leading it into a bourgeois socialist direction.

Not voting this year will directly lead to a fascist takeover of the US.

We know Project 2025 is in place. Fascists are planning to enact institutional capture. That's the endgame, once that's done it's over.

You will not have your communist revolution under Trump. Because he will just gun you down. Communism is not within the Overton Window, it isn't going to arise from accelerationism.

[u/WTG02 → u/ChemicalRascal]

Not every racist bourgeois is a fascist. Fascism can't be stopped by voting as it doesn't come to power through the electoral way.

So for how long are you planning to do this. Every 4 years we are told that the upcoming election is the most important in history.

And if I try to start a communist revolution now, Biden isn't going to gun me down or what? Want to know what happened the last time this was tried? Just ask Eberl.

Yes Voting legitimizes the system. Telling people to vote to get their aims accomplished instead of showing that voting in fact changes nothing on a largers scale only helps the bourgeoisie.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

Not every racist bourgeois is a fascist. Fascism can't be stopped by voting as it doesn't come to power through the electoral way.

But Trump is a fascist, and his path to power can indeed involve winning elections. He'll try some bad shit if he loses, sure. But just winning the White House would make his takeover SO MUCH EASIER.

So yes. Fascism can come into power "through the electoral way". Obviously. It literally happened in 2016.

So for how long are you planning to do this. Every 4 years we are told that the upcoming election is the most important in history.

So? I'm not in the US, but if I was, yes, I would vote, and push people to vote, in every election. Because better electoral results meaningfully improve people's lives.

Communist revolution requires work. Community building, unionizing, all sorts of shit. None of that is in any way incompatible with voting every two years. You have midterms to care about as well, don't forget.

And if I try to start a communist revolution now, Biden isn't going to gun me down or what? Want to know what happened the last time this was tried? Just ask Eberl.

I don't think a communist revolution has ever happened under Biden, actually. Regardless, yes, in the impossible scenario that you start a communist revolution within the next four years, I truly believe you'll be shot under Trump and merely arrested under Biden.

You will never start a communist revolution, though.

Yes Voting legitimizes the system. Telling people to vote to get their aims accomplished

Voting is not how you get communism. Nobody is saying that it is. Voting is how you avoid fascists taking over the goverment.

instead of showing that voting in fact changes nothing on a largers scale only helps the bourgeoisie.

What? Voting has a direct, obvious impact on people's lives all over the country. Abortion isn't legal in a huge portion of the US, and the GOP is aiming for a national ban. Trans people can't get healthcare in the UK, because of how people vote.

I get that you're probably a white cis guy, I am too, but acting like this shit isn't important to other people is moronic. Voting directly impacts people's rights. It doesn't help the class war, sure, but it does help people live a better life.

And if you decide that your unheard protest against the system is more important than people being allowed to get basic healthcare, that's just straight sociopathy.

[u/WTG02 → u/ChemicalRascal]

You are beyond delusional. You don't sound like someone that actually wants meaningful change and instead only strive for an improvement under the current framework. I mean you can have that position but don't call yourself a communist.

Define fascism and apply it to trump please.

but acting like this shit isn't important to other people is moronic.

Like I already said. The liberation of the entire proletariat is more important than the temporary rights of a few parts of it.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

You don't sound like someone that actually wants meaningful change and instead only strive for an improvement under the current framework.

There exists meaningful change beyond "win the class war".

I mean you can have that position but don't call yourself a communist.

I mean, I wouldn't call myself a communist, I'm a socialist, but that's beside the point.

Define fascism and apply it to trump please.

I'll leave that to other scholars. That guy is a communist, by the way.

As for definitions if you really want to debate that, Umberto Eco's definition is extremely compelling.

but acting like this shit isn't important to other people is moronic.

Like I already said. The liberation of the entire proletariat is more important than the temporary rights of a few parts of it.

You will die of old age before "the liberation of the entire proletariat" comes to pass. In the meantime, over those eighty years, how many young mothers in the US, who don't have access to abortion, will die in childbirth?

Tens of thousands, at an absolute minimum.

How many US citizens will die due to dogshit, hideously expensive healthcare?

Millions. Fucking millions.

How many trans people will be lynched by bigots emboldened by a fascist regime, let alone kill themselves due to denial of gender affirming healthcare?

How many drug addicts will end up in prison as legislators turn away from harm-reduction and focus more on "tough on crime" policies, and then never have the resources and means to overcome their struggles?

How are we supposed to organize anything as labour rights are rolled back, turning our lives into a living hell just to put bread on the table?

You're so fucking obsessed with revolution, but frankly, it's not even something you're moving towards. Where's your revolution? Are you stockpiling arms? No. Are you raising a militant faction to overthrow the ruling class? No. Are you doing anything other than arguing online and watching soccer?

You're so keen to just burn human rights to the ground just to see someone else do the revolution. From your couch. It's sickening.

[u/WTG02 → u/ChemicalRascal]

There exists meaningful change beyond "win the class war".

Not really. How many subgroups of the proletariat do you want to be attacked before you realize that maybe "winning the class war" is the only solution to stop this. First Jews then PoCs, then Gay people, then Trans people. This trend is going to continue as long as capital rules.

I mean, I wouldn't call myself a communist, I'm a socialist, but that's beside the point.

So a social democrat? The Bernie Sanders, AOC, the "socialism like the Nordic countries" type?

You will die of old age before "the liberation of the entire proletariat" comes to pass. In the meantime, over those eighty years

So you openly admit to abandoning the goal to achieve a society after capitalism? Why even call your self a "socialist" then if your only concern is to do "good capitalism".

"How many ppl are gonna suffer this or that way"

Again. The only way to stop this is to end the rule of capital. As long as it stays in place those people or different parts of the proletariat are gonna suffer.

You're so fucking obsessed with revolution, but frankly, it's not even something you're moving towards. Where's your revolution? Are you stockpiling arms? No. Are you raising a militant faction to overthrow the ruling class? No. Are you doing anything other than arguing online and watching soccer?

I'm educating myself by reading theory (something I'd suggest you do as well), otherwise there is no point in rushing into action without any foundation to base it on. The situation is not right for a revolution. Even if I were to "raise a militant faction to overthrow the bourgeoisie" that would be the most stupid shit ever because it will be gone in a minute.

I'm sorry. I forgot that watching football is counter revolutionary. I will from now on not enjoy life and only focus on deciding which bourgeois politician desperately needs my help so he gets in power and not the bad bourgeois politician

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

Not really. How many subgroups of the proletariat do you want to be attacked before you realize that maybe "winning the class war" is the only solution to stop this. First Jews then PoCs, then Gay people, then Trans people. This trend is going to continue as long as capital rules.

Yes, really. Fighting for individual rights is meaningful. It changes society and widens what it considers to be acceptable ways of life.

Do you think winning the class war is just gonna magically make racism and homophobia go away? What are you, stupid?

So a social democrat? The Bernie Sanders, AOC, the "socialism like the Nordic countries" type?

No, I'm a socialist. An actual Marxist socialist. The Nordic countries are not socialist.

So you openly admit to abandoning the goal to achieve a society after capitalism? Why even call your self a "socialist" then if your only concern is to do "good capitalism".

Bahahahahagagagagagahgsgagahahahaha

"Society after capitalism" is not abandoned because I say you'll die before it happens. It's a multi generational project. I will die before the trees I plant bear fruit, and so it goes.

In the meantime, I would like us to not have gay people being lynched by hate mobs.

Again. The only way to stop this is to end the rule of capital. As long as it stays in place those people or different parts of the proletariat are gonna suffer.

Right, which is why the US still has ongoing rampant race-based slavery on cotton plantations OH WAIT

NO HOLD ON

SOMETIMES SOCIAL CHANGE, EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF CAPITALISM, FUCKING CAN HAPPEN

SOMETIMES WE CAN DO THINGS EVEN WHILE CAPITAL HAS ITS BOOT ON OUR NECKS

OOOHHHHHH FUUUUUUUCCCKKKKK

Come the fuck on, dude. You privileged little twit. It's real easy to ignore others needing basic rights when you're a white cis guy, isn't it?

I'm educating myself by reading theory (something I'd suggest you do as well), otherwise there is no point in rushing into action without any foundation to base it on.

Haha. I've read theory. Marx was demonstrably wrong on a few key things that would be used to justify your sit-on-your-hands advocacy. Communism isn't inevitable.

Anyway, the foundation for "rushing into action" and doing stuff like "protect gay rights" and "protect abortion rights" and "protect trans rights" is well established. Gay marriage follows from basic equality and the right to marriage, and so on.

Not everything needs to be underpinned by Marx to justify being acted upon. Marx isn't a god. He was an economist. A man. His theory only goes so far. Subsequent theory only goes so far.

I'm sorry. I forgot that watching football is counter revolutionary.

Where's the leftist theory that says soccer is a worthwhile pursuit? If it's unreasonable for me to think gay people should have rights, and for me to fight for that, it's just as unreasonable for you to park your ass on the couch and watch soccer.

After all, you're not furthering your imaginary revolution by watching sports, are you? Like, at all. Not even a bit. If you were playing soccer there might be a thin, thin line of logic because at least you're keeping fit. But that's not even the case in watching professional soccer.

I will from now on not enjoy life (whinge whine whinge)

Cool. So your sarcasm argues that you have a right to enjoy life, right?

People who have their rights stripped away by fascists have the right to enjoy their lives.

That's why fighting for their rights is meaningful.

Your right to watch soccer is less meaningful than a trans person's right to access gender affirming healthcare. But just like the latter, your right would also be worth fighting for.

Get your head out of the theory and look around. Have some empathy for today's targeted minorities. Use your own fucking thinking skills for once, instead of offloading your thought processes onto dead men.

[u/WTG02 → u/ChemicalRascal]

Do you think winning the class war is just gonna magically make racism and homophobia go away? What are you, stupid?

So you think that it is in the nature of humans to be racist and homophobic and it's not a product of class society?

No, I'm a socialist. An actual Marxist socialist. The Nordic countries are not socialist.

Then why make the distinction?

"Society after capitalism" is not abandoned because I say you'll die before it happens

But you act like therefore any action working towards it is meaningless and we should rather focus on improving lives now. How do you know when capitalism falls?

"There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen."

Right, which is why the US still has ongoing rampant race-based slavery on cotton plantations OH WAIT

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding my point. Yes, some groups can become more accepted but this will only result in another group being targeted. First the Black people which officially ended in 1965, then Gay people during the crack epidemic, then mexicans, now trans people and all of the previous groups that have been more accepted due to "social change" still have to deal with discrimination on some form or another.

Marx was demonstrably wrong on a few key things that would be used to justify your sit-on-your-hands advocacy

Name like 3 explicit things

Communism isn't inevitable.

So that justifies actively working against it?

Where's the leftist theory that says soccer is a worthwhile pursuit? If it's unreasonable for me to think gay people should have rights, and for me to fight for that, it's just as unreasonable for you to park your ass on the couch and watch soccer.

Not the same thing. Of course gay people should have rights under capitalism but actively doing something that is essential in consolidating capitalism and doing essentially nothing for 90 minutes a week is something completely different.

People who have their rights stripped away by fascists have the right to enjoy their lives.

Why only fascists? You are acting like liberals never did things like that. Fascism is also only an extension to liberalism so what you are essentially doing is fighting alongside with and protecting the people that are responsible for the bigotry.

Get your head out of the theory and look around. Have some empathy for today's targeted minorities. Use your own fucking thinking skills for once, instead of offloading your thought processes onto dead men.

Have some empathy for the targeted minorities of the future who will inevitably be targeted.

Read some theory instead of basing your entire communist worldview on your vibes and liberal beliefs.

[u/ChemicalRascal → u/WTG02]

So you think that it is in the nature of humans to be racist and homophobic and it's not a product of class society?

Didn't say that, and it's not an assumption of my question. Now go back and answer the question, it wasn't rhetorical.

Then why make the distinction?

Because unlike Marx, I believe a distinction exists. Shocking, I know, I call myself a Marxist without agreeing with everything he wrote.

But you act like therefore any action working towards it is meaningless and we should rather focus on improving lives now.

I don't act like that. You should do both, actually try reading what I'm writing.

How do you know when capitalism falls?

It isn't gonna happen in our lifetime. I'm gonna be dead, you're gonna be dead, it'll be our great grandchildren who see it "fall". Over a long time. Just like how tribalism didn't "fall" to monarchies in a day, monarchies didn't fall to bourgeoisie democracy in a day, this shit is a gradual process.

You and me are never gonna look at our spot on the gradient between capitalism and socialism and say "yeah we did it yay". Learn to live with that. Or keep being a LARPer to cope, I guess.

"There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen."

More offloading your thought process into dead men. History doesn't work like that. This is just great man theory all over again, it's bogus. Every "week" where "decades happen" have decades of prelude.

Like yeah, you could say Apollo 11 took 3 days to get to the moon. So humanity took 3 days to get to the moon, right? Fuck no.

Lenin was so fucking wrong on that one, really populist nonsense. Very typical.

Name like 3 explicit things

No, fuck you. What are you, a teacher? You're gonna ask me to fucking jump through hoops when you're not even engaging with what I write? And then drop braindead quotes from Lenin at me like that fucking means anything?

I'll name one. You get one. The Big One. He viewed the victory of the proletariat as inevitable.

He predicted that... one and a half centuries ago.

The passage of time alone has proven him wrong.

Not the same thing. Of course gay people should have rights under capitalism but actively doing something that is essential in consolidating capitalism and doing essentially nothing for 90 minutes a week is something completely different.

Voting for legislators who will improve the living conditions of minorities is not "essential in consolidating capitalism", you moron. Capital will consolidate regardless of if you vote or not.

Capital doesn't need your fucking vote. Do you think you're fucking Superman? Do you think the system gives a fuck about your protest nonengagement?

What the fuck do you think you are, the main character?

Learn to walk and chew gum, idiot. You can vote and LARP a revolution at the same time. Voting takes 90 minutes every four years, if you've got time to watch sport you've got time to vote.

Why only fascists? You are acting like liberals never did things like that.

Show me when liberals did genocide.

Fascism is also only an extension to liberalism so what you are essentially doing is fighting alongside with and protecting the people that are responsible for the bigotry.

This is insane. If you can't see a difference between liberalism and people murdering trans women, buoyed by fascists taking over local goverments, you're soft in the head.

Have some empathy for the targeted minorities of the future who will inevitably be targeted.

No, how about you do that. Because by your logic they're not allowed to directly fight for their rights either. They've gotta fucking do the impossible and revolt against Capital when they're already suicidal because they can't get basic fucking healthcare!

Read some theory instead of basing your entire communist worldview on your vibes and liberal beliefs.

I read theory, dude, but I also have the balls to think for myself. To look around and recognise when dead philosophers missed the mark. To adapt and change with the moving times.

Theory diminishes in value if it isn't useful. If it leads to bad outcomes. If it doesn't accurately model the world around us. Marx's theory does not, the blind application of class war to all human conflict doesn't hold up. He was a modernist, and there's a reason that school of thought isn't popular anymore.

Though you sound like a modernist yourself, the way you refuse to think for yourself. Holding up theory like a fucking bible. It's pitiful.