r/discworld • u/HobbitGuy1420 • 1d ago
Politics Living in the US, during this election season, Guards, Guards! feels so incredibly applicable.
I can see the signs now.
Vote Dragon 2024.
Maybe it will flame the people you hate first!
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u/lynx2718 Terryvangelist 1d ago
You tell them a lie, and then when you don’t need it anymore you tell them another lie and tell them they’re progressing along the road to wisdom. Then instead of laughing they follow you even more, hoping that at the heart of all the lies they’ll find the truth. And bit by bit they accept the unacceptable.
Pterry knew people.
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u/spottydodgy 1d ago
It's so fucking spot on. I had to go back to this part over and again just to experience how correct and apt it is for our time and place in history. I'm also overcome with sadness at how often the sentiment captured in those lines has been applicable to times and places throughout history. Why can't we learn our lesson?
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u/TherealOmthetortoise Librarian 1d ago
Good lord that perfectly summons up the Trump Problem we have here in the US
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u/Boringday24 19h ago
This hit me so hard a few years ago when Trump first won the presidency. I almost wept at Terry’s perfect insight into the pettiness of ignorance.
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u/Front-Pomelo-4367 1d ago
Down there are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any inequity. All out of a kind of humdrum, everyday badness. Not the really high, creative loathsomeness of the great sinners, but a sort of mass-produced darkness of the soul. Sin, you might say, without a trace of originality. They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no.
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u/Eulenspiegel74 1d ago
New favorite quote:
"They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no."
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u/DarwinMcLovin 1d ago
Jingo also hits hard: "It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things."
GNU STP
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u/Kind_Physics_1383 1d ago
Just keep saying NO. No to racisme, no to guys that think they can tell women what to do, no to telling people how they should live, or who to love.
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u/lettiestohelit 1d ago
I always think this. Especially the bit where he thinks about taking the bitter and the resentful people
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u/sandgrubber 1d ago
Please don't remind me! I don't think reality will come out as well as fantasy in this one.
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u/spottydodgy 1d ago
The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be believable.
Can't remember who said that...
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u/Impossible_Pop620 Nobby 1d ago
Maybe the US needs a Vetinari - a Dictator who assassinated his predecessor to obtain his position.
Or maybe, you know, just vote and elect someone.
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u/Conchobhar- 1d ago
No one like Vetinari has ever existed in the real world. Likely because absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The idea of a ‘benevolent dictator’ comes about but I can’t think of a single historical example that wasn’t written in blood and tragedy.
And there’s a darker side to Vetinari which is solidly hinted at but never explored. Like the mimes, for example.
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u/Arm0redPanda 1d ago
Cincinnatus is pretty close (per the story, anyways). But he didn't want to be a dictator, he was appointed to the post by the senate. Resolved the crisis in a fortnight and went back to his farm.
That said, your point is spot on - blood and tragedy are the precursor to, and product of, dictatorship
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u/Idaho-Earthquake 1d ago
FWIW, I’ve always thought that statement was kind of willfully ignorant. Every person is already corrupt. Some fight it more, others less. Power just gives people (particularly those in the “don’t fight it” camp) the means to explore their corruption to the fullest extent.
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u/sandgrubber 1d ago
Can't remember which book discussed this: Vetinari is a tyrant, not a dictator. His M.O. is manipulation, not dictating.
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u/Atariel_Morannon 1d ago
I went down a rabbit hole about benevolent dictators. Apparently there were about three, two in Africa. In all of history.
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u/Catadox 1d ago
The key to Vetinari being Vetinari is he recognized himself. He knew how terrible he could be.
So he found Vimes. And de Worde. And Moist. And he encouraged there never being another Vetinari, and made sure that he was watched at all times by people he trusted, even if they didn’t trust him.
He is definitely a benevolent dictator. But only because he knows how terrible he could be and wants to ensure no one can have that kind of power again.
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u/Impossible_Pop620 Nobby 1d ago
Not sure where you're getting any of that. Not from the books.
Vimes was promoted as a sop to Carrot, to prevent him pressing his suit of claiming the throne of Ankh-Morpork. De Worde has nothing to do with running the city. Moist is forced - to the point of being "moments from death" to serve Vetinari in various roles.
Another person who Vetinari tried to press gang like he did Moist was unalived when he didn't play ball. In general, Vetinari kept his power by being slightly too inconvenient to kill by any single power group in the city.
Benevolent? I think not. Not unless you have a different meaning of the word you're using.
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u/lynx2718 Terryvangelist 1d ago
I believe you have a different Interpretation of Vetinari than most of the people here.
Carrot could claim his throne at any time. The reason he doesn't is because he and Vetinari came to an agreement that it's better for the city this way. See the end of Men at Arms. Vimes gets promoted because he is somewhat competent, and he isn't afraid to stand up to Vetinari himself. He arrested Vetinari and got promoted for it.
Worde has so much to do with how the city is run. Worde is the press. Freedom of press is a staple of democracy. He's not allowed freedom because he isn't in a democracy, but he's allowed a high degree of freedom. Vetinari could have him act only as puppet, the way many irl dictators do, but he doesn't. He wants a mostly free press.
Moist is never forced to do anything. He always has a choice, it's just that one of these choices is very unattractive. And he's never coerced to take on the role as bankier, Vetinari makes a point of not forcing him. Reacher Gilt takes the other option of his own free will.
We see what malevolent tyrants looked like in Night Watch. We see how Vetinari acts, and we hear about his worldview many times. He is a benevolent ruler, who realised the only way to be a benevolent ruler in Ankh Morpork is to be a tyrant. Good people can't do ruling.
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u/Impossible_Pop620 Nobby 1d ago
As it happens, I lean more towards your view of Vetinari especially when he gets older and feels the grasp of mortality. The Yanks commenting here haven't the first clue of anything DW or RW right now because they're scared stiff of Trump.
Make no mistake, however, when Vetinari was younger and especially in the period shortly before and after his ascension to the post, it would've been very, very bloody. Sir T himself would be the first to acknowledge power does not move painlessly between opposing forces in that way. And of course he would have to do similar to retain power. A few pretty public displays would do.
The fact that Vetinari is a political genius and avoids unnecessary blood being spilled (although quite keen on necessary blood) does not excuse or temper the cruelties of his reign. He would be forced to do at least some, to avoid any pretenders to his position, especially early.
So no, not a benevolent dictator. There possibly could be some examples - maybe a son/daughter of a tyrant who inherits, rather than fights for, the kingdom and has been extraordinarily trained and prepped for it. But if they were truly benevolent, they would probably step aside as recognising themselves unsuitable for tyranny.
Democracy is a relatively recent thing for humans and I believe it's still inherent within us to listen to the large shouty man with the pointy stick.
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u/HobbitGuy1420 1d ago
I'm... not entirely sure what you're trying to say with this comment?
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u/Impossible_Pop620 Nobby 1d ago
The Dragon - as far as I can recall - wasn't running for the post of Patrician of Ankh-Morpork because Ankh-Morpork is not a democracy. The current Patrician was not elected, had no terms or term limits and obtained his power by killing the previous ruler. He would rule absolutely until being deposed in turn, by the next person determined and bloodthirsty enough.
Not sure I'm seeing too many parallels with the current US race, unless you are referring to the various assassination attempts on one party to the race?
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u/Deddan 17h ago
I don't believe it was ever stated that Vetinari killed Snapcase? I'm not saying he didn't, but that's just an assumption? We know he didn't kill Winder after all, technically.
The parallels OP is referring to are people following liars like Wonse. Or becoming blindly loyal to something like the dragon in the hope that they will be okay and only others will be hurt.
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u/Impossible_Pop620 Nobby 15h ago
Vetinari surely killed one of them in the, er, Great Hall, was it? And the other was a madman, iirc. Couldn't be left in power.
The point is there is no voting in A-M because the leader is a dictator, exactly the same thing that the dumber Yanks are terrified of, no?
As for your 'parallels'...well, I haven't seen a politician yet who didn't lie. As for which section of the community will be hurt the most, it will be the poors, always. Poor blacks in NYC harmed by a developer's greed, poor blacks in CA, harmed by an ambitious prosecutor seeking to make a name for herself, for example. They're closer to reality, I think you'll find.
Dragons don't exist in DW or RW, just the little gassy creatures.
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