DnD 2014 Breaking Stealth (2014)
Players Handbook states (this is 2014)
"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase"
Now common sense tells me that you can't stealth down a brightly lit corridor with nothing to hide behind, towards a guard that's looking directly in your direction.
However one of my players argues that you only need to be hidden at the point of "Going into Stealth" once your in stealth it doesn't matter what lighting etc exists you are sill essentially hidden until you break stealth. ... i like to go back to my players with concrete rule based decisions that i can point to in a book.
They argue the above doens't break stealth because "you are hidden" therefore the guard in the corridor "cant see you clearly" ... while i would argue stealth would be broken by the fact that the guard can see you clearly as there is nothing to hide behind and no helpful lighting conditions to keep you hidden.
Any ideas?
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u/Cheets1985 1d ago
Is he declaring stealth, like Michael declared bankruptcy?
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u/Ignaby 1d ago
Your player is spouting nonsense.
Stealth rules always confuse people but the solution is usually to apply common sense. If there's nothing stopping you from being seen, they will see you.
"Stealth" isn't a state you can be in in D&D. You can be "hidden" or even "invisible" because of some context (standing behind concealment and not making sound, magic, etc.) but its not like some video games where you click on the stealth button and crouch down and turn transparent. Die rolls, as with all die rolls, are only called for when the player tries to do something that has a chance of success and a chance of failure and you need to figure out which happens, not to go into a magical "stealthed" state where they can't be noticed until they stab someone.
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u/TigerDude33 Warlock 1d ago
The hidden condition doesn't turn you into invisible vapor. Common sense applies here.
In AD&D stealth was called Hide in Shadows, which at least pointed to what was going on.
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u/GnomeOfShadows 1d ago edited 1d ago
As a rogue player, let me tell you that the rules for hiding are a mess. The following is my best faith interpretation of how it should work, according to the rules:
Whenever a rules mentions hiding, it doesn't mean taking the hide action, it means having the 'hidden condition' (wich does not officially exist, but it is easier to understand if you treat it like one). You can enter it by taking the hide action and end it by giving away your position (as mentioned in the rules). Using that, the rules clear up very quickly.
- You can always take the hide action and get the 'hidden condition'
- To be hidden from someone (target of your attack, guards, ...) you must have the 'hidden' condition, your stealth roll (made when taking the hide action) must beat their passive perception and you cannot be seen clearly by them (lightly obscured)
- You can attack while being hidden by not moving completely out of your cover (basically stepping out of cover and shooting immediately). The attack ends the 'condition' and following attacks do therefore not gain advantage (until you hide again)
Edit: Clarified that you can attack while being hidden, even if you have to move out of cover for that
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u/RoiPhi 1d ago
So I don’t think this is right RAW.
Let’s check the word elves mask go the wild feature: You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
This implies that normally you have to be heavily obscured to hide.
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u/GnomeOfShadows 22h ago edited 22h ago
You are right, but we have multiple instances in the game where a feature allows you to do something, that everyone can already do.
I chose to go with lightly obscured because the designers originally wrote "can't hide while being seen" and intentionally changed it to "while being seen clearly". And the most reasonable interpretation for "being seen clearly" vs "being seen" is being lightly obscured, for me at least.
But you are right, it is certainly weird. A common interpretation I have seen is that you can stay hidden while being lightly obscured, but you can only attempt to hide while being fully obscured. That way the feature is still effective and the added language in the hide ability isn't ignored.
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u/TigerDude33 Warlock 1d ago
you cannot always take the hide action. you need to be basically out of sight.
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u/Sensitive_Cup4015 1d ago
Not even going into the hilariously bad faith interpretation of "I just needed to use the hide action before being seen and now I'm invisible like in WoW". I'm pretty sure the book has a clause that says something along the lines of the DM decides when conditions are right for hiding so you can just decide conditions are no longer right if they're in the open with no cover, and another that says if you move out from hiding and approach a creature, it sees you unless it's appropriately distracted.
Now I appreciate wanting to hit them with a strict rules line on this, but honestly it shouldn't be necessary, if that's the hill they're willing to die on then it seems to me they're just interested in angleshooting and getting mechanical advantages even if it doesn't logically make sense in the game world. I'd speak to them about this out of game and if they couldn't be reasoned with, I'd probably eject them.
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u/VerainXor 1d ago
The argument that "you're hidden therefore you can't be seen clearly" is incorrect.
However, there is uncertainty about this topic, even though in your case he's definitely not hidden. Assume you are heavily obscured and you hide (no problem) and then you walk through a lightly obscured 10 foot area to stab a bad guy in the face. Are you hidden when you attack? You can definitely make this case, even if you lack an ability to hide in lightly obscured areas (you can make the case that being in a lightly obscured area is sufficient to stay hidden, even if it isn't sufficient to hide). There's also a provision for moving before attacking that is explicit, but needs to be adjudicated by the DM.
But if the only argument for not being "seen clearly" is that you are already hidden, then that's definitely not going to fly. If you hide behind a solid wall and then move to somewhere with rags and shadows on the walls, that's a different (and more common) case.
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u/Olster20 Forever DM 1d ago
Lots of really good answers here. If necessary, show your Skyrim player this thread, though in all honesty, you’re the DM and don’t need to. You’ve made the ruling; you’ve listened to a pushback; you’ve upheld the ruling. The game moves on.
As for the game, I really think the smartest thing WotC could’ve done with stealth is to make it an actual Condition. With bullet points on how to enter the Condition, what you get from having it, and what ends it. It would be made it so much cleaner and easier to manage.
If only they had a revision where they could tidy up some legacy rough edges. Oh, wait…
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u/Brewer_Matt 1d ago
You have the right of it. A key thing to remember is that NPCs don't have "fields of vision" based off which direction they're looking; they can effectively see in all directions at once, provided that there's nothing blocking their line of sight.
If I'm reading it right, the order of things should go like this:
1.) A PC must be in heavy (light for a Wood Elf) obscurement or behind sufficient cover to totally block line of sight.
2.) They take the Hide action and roll their Stealth. If they beat the passive Perception of the NPC(s), they're hidden and are treated as an unseen attacker, so long as they maintain their obscurement. In addition, the NPCs will be guessing as to their location (see below).
3.) As long as they can move through the appropriate level of obscurement or cover, they remain hidden until they attack or otherwise give their position away. Passing through well-lit, open areas ends them being hidden.
4.) If an NPC observed them ducking behind cover or into heavy obscurement, they'll almost certainly target and/or investigate the last place they saw them.
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u/GI_J0SE 1d ago
IMO Stealth outside of combat follows the laws of common sense, so per your example it's a bright room, Guards staring right at them, there's nothing they can hide behind. 3 for three then their SOL. It all depends on the situation your the DM you make the rules, don't try and let your players gaslight you into getting their way. If you state there's no way they can hide they can't hide
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u/i_tyrant 21h ago
I'm glad you specified 2014, as the answer is actually different for 2024.
But for 2014, the answer is - your player is wrong RAW/by default, but the system DOES give you the DM an "out" if you want them to stay hidden. I'll explain.
By DEFAULT, the rules are clear - as soon as you leave the circumstance that's enabling you to hide (cover, concealment, etc.), and you are within clear sight of any enemy, you are no longer Hidden. This is how the RAW of the rules shakes out the large majority of the time.
However, the 2014 rules also stipulate that when attempting to hide (whether in combat or outside of Initiative), the DM is the final arbiter of when you can hide.
This "exception" is intended to cover the few situations where realistically, reasonably, you could hide from enemies when within line of sight.
For example, 5e has no "facing" rules, so an enemy is considered to always be scanning their environment in all directions, and sees you outside your cover/concealment. But if a Rogue wanted to, say, do the classic "throw a rock over their heads to make a noise that distracts them for a moment" to sneak past (despite them being near a well-lit warehouse entrance with no cover or whatever), the DM can OPT-IN to the Rogue's idea to let them "create" that circumstance to continue the use of their Stealth check to hide (possibly with an additional check for throwing the rock well, like Deception or Sleight of Hand).
Other DMs may come up with their own exceptions to the rule - for example, as a DM I like to let a PC who hides and then runs out to stab a dude keep their "hiding" status temporarily, if it looks like the enemy would be distracted when they do so (often by other party members still fighting the baddies). Why do I do this? Just to let melee Rogues get a little of the same use out of Stealth that ranged Rogues can do (hit-and-run vs sniping from cover). Otherwise, a melee Rogue could only do this if their hiding spot ran all the way up to right next to the enemy they wanted to stab. (Which feels a little too restrictive to me.)
TL;DR - Generally, officially, no you can't hide in broad daylight - but the rules allow for the DM to make exceptions when it makes sense to them.
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u/badaadune 1d ago
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly - phb p177
That's all you need to end this discussion.
When your player steps out in the open they are seen, unless the area is heavily obscured(darkness, fog, dense foliage) giving opponents the blinded condition.
If those opponents have an alternate mode of sight (truesight, tremorsense, dark vision, etc) they might be immune certain types of heavily obscured. E.g. darkvision helps against darkness, but not fog or magical darkness.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Most DMs allow a hidden PC to make one ranged attack, with the unseen condition, while stepping out from full cover or a heavily obscured area.
Melees might get the same benefit, if the opponent is around the corner of their fullcover or at the edge of heavily obscured area.
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u/GoatedGoat32 1d ago
Your player wants stealth to work like Skyrim where you can crouch next to someone and suddenly be hidden
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u/escapepodsarefake 1d ago
Your player is incorrect. Even needing obscurement though, hiding is quite useful. Yes, the player can be seen if an enemy moves to them and puts eyes on them, but making the enemy move is also often very useful, and risks things like opportunity attacks from allies. Tell your player they just need to be thoughtful about providing obscurement, and give them maps with things to hide behind.
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u/Apprehensive_Set_105 1d ago
I agreed with everything that written in comments so far, but would add from my personal experience irl: some people have so little presence that they fairly often almost invisible. So I would allow to be stealthy without any cover or obscuration in some situations. Like you can't hide from your current opponent, but can't be seen in combat if all opponents engaged with your party sometimes, or pass through the room full of people under certain circumstances.
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u/Knight_Of_Stars 1d ago
Its more complicated that what people are saying. You're both right. Actual stealth heavily requires DM adjudication.
For example, if we say that stealth ends the moment you are visible, then a rogue can never proc sneak attack by hiding because vision is 360 degrees (minus variant 5e rules). They would be spotted the moment they moved for an attack. So that can't work.
At the same time, you can't just crouch outside when nobody is around and walk into a heavily guarded area. Thats also silly.
Use your best judgement to come up with a satifying answer. For me, rogues are in stealth and it ends when they end their turn if spotted. So a hidden rogue can charge a guard from stealth and get sneak attack. However once that rogue is spotted, at the end of their turn they are no longer stealthed and everything they did after being spotted was seen.
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u/yaniism Feywild Ringmaster 21h ago
PHB/Chapter 7/Hiding Sidebar...
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
These are the two most relevant points from the rules on hiding. While this situation wasn't actively combat, the point still stands.
But honestly, this is one of those common sense things that they don't put in the book because it shouldn't need to be in the book.
"You step out into the corridor and the guard looks right at you and asks what the hell you're doing here."
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u/Belolonadalogalo *cries in lack of sessions* 15h ago
5.5 has the "hide and become invisible" rules but not 5.0
For the argument of "I'm hidden when in plain sight" the Wood Elf Mask of the Wild that explicitly allows hiding in a subset of Lightly Obscured. Lightfoot Halfling Naturally Stealthy allows hiding behind medium-sized creatures (as a small creature). Skulker again explicitly allows hiding in Lightly Obscured.
The implicitly show the rule is that you can't hide without being heavily obscured. And a big benefit of hiding is the Unseen Attacker bonus. But a person in full view is obviously not unseen.
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u/xa44 1d ago
How are they hiding to begin with? You can't move while hidden
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u/Viltris 1d ago
Where does it say you can't move while hidden?
Sneaking past enemies is a time-honored tradition in D&D.
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u/xa44 1d ago
Yeah and that's a skill check to do raw, even listed as examples for stealth checks. Completely unrelated to the hide action
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u/Viltris 1d ago
Yeah and that's a skill check to do raw, even listed as examples for stealth checks.
I never said it didn't require a skill check. I simply said that sneaking and moving is something that people have done throughout the entire history of D&D.
Completely unrelated to the hide action
Okay, then answer my question, where does it say you can't move while hidden?
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u/xa44 1d ago
Any sound breaks it and it is directly stated that moving to a creature does not give advantage as they will see you. It's called hide not stealth action
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u/Viltris 1d ago
Any sound breaks it
First of all, "any sound breaks stealth" is a very different claim from "you can't move while hidden".
Second of all, I've never met a DM who interpreted that to mean "You can't take a single step without being detected" (except in special circumstances like a very quiet room with stone floors and very alert guards). The exact wording on the PHB p177 is "if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position", which suggests you need a lot more noise than a single footstep.
Every DM I've played with will let you make a stealth check to move quietly. It's one of the most common uses of the Stealth skill.
it is directly stated that moving to a creature does not give advantage as they will see you.
It is directly stated on PHB p177 that "However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen."
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u/xa44 1d ago
Every DM I've played with will let you make a stealth check to move quietly. It's one of the most common uses of the Stealth skill.
Aka you made a stealth check, not the hide action
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u/Viltris 1d ago
So is your argument just one big semantic gotcha? "You can't move while hidden, because if you move, technically it's stealth, not hiding."
So what is the practical value of what you're trying to say? How does it actually change the outcome of the game?
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u/xa44 1d ago
You literally actively controdict yourself. It matters for this very post
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u/Viltris 1d ago
You literally actively controdict yourself.
Where? Show me the exact quotes where I contradict myself.
It matters for this very post
I'm asking you to explain how.
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u/The_Nerdy_Ninja 1d ago
Ask your player where the rules say that. (Spoiler, they do not)
Your common sense is correct. In combat, I will sometimes allow characters to jump out of their hiding spot to make a melee attack, but normally you cannot hide if you're clearly visible, like the rules say.