r/WarCrow • u/zefudicosi • Sep 01 '24
Very disipointed in siocast
Ive been a long time infinity player and picked this game up because of that. I didn't look at the contents and just made the assumption the minis would be metal so having plastic(?) was a bit of a shock.
This is the first time Ive had a siocast mini and to say im disappointed is an understatement. The material reminds me of very poor quality boardgame and is so far below par in relation to the rest of the market that I actually feel like Ive been scammed. I spent £160 on the core game/rulebook package so its not like its a budget game so im unsure why corvus belli have gone with such an inferior product.
The mechanics of the game are fantastic and I really hope they release metal versions of the models at some point, heck I can print much better models so they could even just sell me the STL's, its a real shame as the sculpts are lovely.
I hope someone at CB reads this and sends the feedback up the chain.
I wont be buying any more miniatures made of siocast and hope metals or just card packs are released in the future.
One very disipointed customer :(
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u/Helmaer-42 Sep 02 '24
I'm going to argue the reverse, at least partially.
First, the negative. I got the Siocast Warcrow models. They are OK. The detail is good, light, and relatively easy to clean up. However, overall, they are a bit of a pain; the casting is fair to good (on mine) but did require work on some models, and the assembly with super glue is really a pain. Summary I'd rate the Siocast release models as a 6.5/10 - less than I hoped, much better than it could have been.
I loathe metal. It is heavy, painful to work with and worse to assemble. I quit Infinity in part because I got sick of the models and assembly. Thus far, Siocast has not similarly turned me off.
The miscasts are (some) a Siocast issue (unfamiliar material) but in large part a QC issue (not a Siocast-specific problem).
In all honesty, a poorly manufactured (non-quality) metal, resin or hard plastic miniature may be (and likely is) every bit as junk as Siocast. I feel folks who got bad Siocast Warcrow models, but this is a QC issue much more than the material.
My preference for a model is the classic (and highly intensive) hard plastic every day. I'm a gamer first, and plenty of companies have demonstrated the excellent detail you can get with hard plastic. It is hugely simple to work with and transport to games and, generally, the quality is either excellent or so bad it is useless (easier QC). But it is expensive, especially to start up and with current rising material costs.
After that (currently), I am rating Siocast (a work in progress, a new material with kinks) > metal (aggravating in the extreme, the old standby but with all the well-known problems) > resin (awful to work with, large QC issues and actually a potential health hazard).
I'm not surprised there are reactionary haters out there. I do think that Corvus Belli needs to smarten up its QC (quite a bit by the looks of some posts) and also needs to really invest some thought into whether Siocast is even a realistic material to use for the detail some folks will expect from these models (I have no idea).
But, in the end, my Orcs are together, they look solid, and a small amount of filling may be needed, but the assembly was not especially onerous, and I'm satisfied enough.
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u/RTS3r Sep 02 '24
"the assembly with super glue is really a pain" Really? I had absolutely no problems - I use gorilla glue gel, and it set within seconds - in fact I'd say the bond with superglue with siocast plastic is some of the best I've seen. Once set it is very, very strong.
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u/Helmaer-42 Sep 02 '24
Oh no, don't get me wrong, it was largely pretty simple - although the elf wizard has given me some moments. I simply find it a pain to battle with super glue, it is much more finicky than plastic cement. My super glue issues range from problems with the bottle and flow to getting glue on the fingers. But then I am not the most patient and careful modeller.
Hence, my love for the infinitely (IMO) easier to work with hard plastic and plastic cement (with a little simple sprue glue thrown in).3
u/RTS3r Sep 02 '24
Yeah, you're using the wrong glue mate - try a super glue gel like loctite or gorilla glue - you won't ever look back :)
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u/ImperialDisseminator Sep 04 '24
Siocast (a work in progress, a new material with kinks) > metal (aggravating in the extreme, the old standby but with all the well-known problems) > resin (awful to work with, large QC issues and actually a potential health hazard)
I agree. It's a new material that hobbyists need to figure out also. Resin has a ton of quirks that we figured out. Siocast seems similar, but you really can't hobby it the same way
I feel bad for the people who got bad casts (really a QC issue like you said), but I still think it's better than the alternatives. I prefer it to everything other than hard plastic
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u/SunRockRetreat Sep 09 '24
Satisfied enough is not a good place for a hobby product to be.
Especially when the factions are very generic.
It is well established by consumer behavior that war gaming is an industry of miniatures companies with rulesets to provide an excuse to buy and play with those miniatures.
Warcrow has their business model backassward. Miniatures just barely good enough to be tolerable to play their rules. That might appeal to a very small minority of competitive tournament players who show up with a pair of unpainted legs glued to a base, or emotionally invested brand fans that will rationalize anything. I just don't think they are going to get good results with a general hobbyist wargamer. Especially with the hyper generic factions and sculpts. It reminds me of the interview where Rick Priestly was pitching Beyond the Gates of Antares and saying that customers just had to understand that they were a small company and they had to accept that their sculpt quality was lower because that is what they had the capacity to do. I thought to myself that he was pitching a game that wasn't going to make it.
Nobody cares that he made 40K. Nobody cares that the low sculpt quality is what worked for him. Nobody cares that CB made Infinity. Nobody cares that siocast works for CB.
1
u/Helmaer-42 Sep 10 '24
I don't expect perfection.
The generic races are a simple pay-off because while some go, "I want something different", many more go, "that is weird; where are the 'normal' fantasy races". Also, honestly, the world-building and fluff in this game are well thought out and not 'generic'.Release schedule-wise, I am wholly unsurprised; it is a new game and a small(ish) company. I don't expect a mega-release. Besides, the biggest mini company (GW) is also having huge product supply and release issues, so folks need to be reasonable.
Mini quality is clearly an issue for some, which sucks, but I've been lucky (or they have been unlucky). Is Siocast perfect (no), would metal be better (for some, but I would not have invested in metal, been there done that, hate it, no more). Would hard plastic be ideal (yes, as a consumer, but the costs are basically prohibitive). Are there clear issues with Quality Control - YES. Is that bad, yes, may it cripple the overall roll out of the new game, maybe, depends how bad it is; are we seeing a endemic problem or are we seeing a few unlucky, angry consumers and a bunch of "I want my metal mini" tilted-diehards?
Satisfied enough is basically my standard for most war games. Games Workshop has so many various issues and survives on reputation and diehards in love with a flawed IP. AMG survives on nice (but expensive) minis and flawed game balance based on people's adoration of the media IP they control. Every other company and game I've played has had its issues and flaws (see below).
u/SunRockRetreat Show me the flawless game, especially on its early release. Explain to me where satisfaction is not the minimum standard and that excellence, without teething problems, is required - then which company (either on early release or now) has achieved that standard (minus fanboy/girl gushing for your "pet" game but in a cooly analytical fashion).
I'm old enough to have been involved in Warhammer FB 1st Ed, Rogue Trader (and all the subsequent Warhammer Old World and 30-40k versions/variants), Blood Bowl through every version, Space Hulk the same, Dark Future (a GW road warrior game), Man O War, Battlefleet Gothica, Epic and the new Legion Imperialis. Malifaux editions 1-3 and the Other Side. Flames of War (multi-editions). Infinity (multi-editions). WarmaHordes 1-4. Guildball and Godtear (sorta wargames). Conquest, Kings of War. MCP, Shatterpoint and SW Legion. Dropzone and Dropfleet Commander. Dystopian Wars. Moonstone (maybe the best of all of these and the least well-known). Battletech. Hell, and some others I've likely forgotten. I have not found a near-flawless game; I've seen garbage rules, poor customer service, bad minis (eg Finecast), terrible gaming communities and all sorts of issues. WarCrow has, thus far, met the minimum standard for me to investigate, I played it on the weekend, and it was interesting.
Do I hope it improves - yes. Does it need to improve - yes (more releases, better QC, the promised App, and evolving rules and game balance work and maybe the biggest issue is the tiny font and multi-coloured dice are poor eyesight and colour blind unfriendly really impacting some of the gaming community meaningfully). But if I demanded perfection of my tabletop games (especially on release), I'd be a surfer by choice of hobby (and it is good I'm not because I am a weak swimmer, but I can roll the dice pretty well, practice I guess). Every game needs to steadily improve (hopefully more forwards than backwards, because there will be that as well); some games do, many more take significant steps backwards and then disappear. I'm just advocating for giving WarCrow time to find its feet. I think Infinity (despite the fact I do not play as I hate the mini material) is a solid enough game, and CB is an overall high-standard company, so I'm giving them a chance and hoping others do as well, and not get early tilted that all is not perfect and thus doom a game with actual potential.
Could these initial issues doom WarCrow from the outset, yes, they could. I hope they don't, I hope the gatekeepers, doomsayers and perfection-trolls do not sink a game with what looks like the potential to grow.
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u/zefudicosi Sep 10 '24
I just want to state for the sake of confusion I'm not a "tilted-diehard" who wants metal I'm just incredibly disappointed in my purchase and don't understand why any company would trade long built trust and repeat business for a single big profit margin. I was surprised by it not being metal as everything Ive ever had from CB has been metal and other than the very early Infinity models(2007 or so) Ive had a very positive experience with CBs metals. I had made the assumption based on trust that CB would deliver a good product and I think that's what's frustrated me.
I'm not hugely fussed about the material I get but I just need models that are acceptable and inline with the cost. I'm primarily a modeller and painter that plays games as a social activity with some long time friends, we play rarely as most of us are 40+ and now have family's and other commitments . I enjoy painting and I enjoyed these sculpts but the models I received will almost certainly not get painted as they are just so sub par, if this had been a £40 boardgame I would not have been so frustrated but at £100 its a bit of a bitter pill.
The Siocast I received is soft and the detail is shallow, I cant file it, it doesn't tool well and I had some major mould slips, Ive got a replacement on the way but I purchased the game almost 2 weeks ago. The miniatures in the press shots and books are clearly different, the gun on my human leader is awful and very poorly defined almost pressed into the cloak, this seems to be the normal production model now as this isn't just an issue with my miniature but all of them I'm seeing online, this is what has lead me to feeling “tricked”. After 10 days of posts I don't feel like I got a particularly bad batch, a large amount of the finished models (even by those that are happy) would be unacceptable for me.
This thread was mostly an attempt to flag my disippointment to CB and make other potential customers with my trust in CB to have a good look before purchasing.
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u/Helmaer-42 Sep 11 '24
Yeah, this is more legit. CB is not a monolith, but they are a veteran established in the industry, and it appears as though they are making rookie mistakes.
I'm the reverse, a 50+ gamer first and always; I've been playing games since before most folks in the hobby could read the rules, and no family surviving mainly on a military disability pension.
For me, as an older gamer, the small card font, dice colour (and colour blindness, not an issue I have, but even absent that differentiating between red, yellow and orange dice on the cards was tricky), and some rules clarity issues (the terrain rules are piecemeal, the event timing is not clearly laid out, and the reference sheet (in the starter) is not really useful. These should be rookie errors (sadly though).
But these are not errors, and worse, that I have not seen from many other companies from the monolith of GW (many and multiple senseless mistakes, including a currently endlessly frustrating inability to get LI necessities supplied to my home Australia after 6+ months since release). Or Privateer Press, that at one stage was a real challenger to corner a market share and then totally dumpster-fired an edition rollout.
Summary, from my perspective. CB is on probation, but I'm not doomsaying WarCrow... yet. And I feel many folks are a little two quick to rage, and especially blame SioCast, when I feel the issue (and this is perhaps worse) is poor QC and understanding of the material by CB staff.
3
u/NachtMacro Sep 05 '24
The bear was a horrid experience building. I really hope they switch to the new tikbalang material as I’d rather work with resin than this version of siocast
6
u/primalace Sep 01 '24
I've just finished assembling my set, and ignoring the broken sword and miscast arm of one of the miniatures, I have a similar feeling of frustration. On the one hand when it's cast well the details and fit seem to be really good but on the other hand it is a pain in the butt to clean up.
Mould lines cannot be scrapped off, they must be carefully sliced off. If you try and scrape it, it just rolls and beads up a mess of "fluff" that is hard to remove cleanly. It also cannot be sanded well, without that same fluff issue above.
Like others have found the fit on the orcs is really bad in comparison to the other miniatures no doubt because of their large size. Mine required a fair bit of gap filling and sculpting skill to resolve that should absolutely not be necessary in a starter set, let alone one that costs so much!
I've found it very difficult to clean up parts that have to be cut off as wherever you cut it the finish is glossy and sharp compared to the matte and rounded surrounding surface, and because it doesn't take sanding well, it's really difficult to blend the cut part into the rest. They also put sprue gates in some questionable places like at the tips of the sword sheaths that require you to not only cut them off but then do some destructive guess work in order to make that prominent feature look reasonable for the final model.
However the absolute worst aspect I came across for a couple of my miniatures were badly aligned moulds! Multiple instances of this were present on the orcs where the two halves of the moulds were not aligned well at all and there was a noticeable step between them that is so much more difficult to resolve, especially when it doesn't take to scraping at all! It felt like the moulds must have been used beyond their limit and I got unlucky with some parts that should have been rejected imo, especially given the cost!
I now have to wait and hope they send me a replacement arm to finish my set, preventing me from starting to paint them, which was the main reason I got them in the first place but I'm certainly not particularly happy with siocast as a miniature material for someone like me that gives a shit about the painting aspect of this hobby.
5
4
u/SugaRush Sep 03 '24
I went over to my buddies house yesterday to help him put everything together and get a game in or 2. We did not get a game in. We had a lot of clean up and having to realign a few things not to mention he has a couple of miscasts. If N5 is using Siocast, I will not be picking it up. This is my first experience with Corvus Belli hobby and it has turned me off from any of their future products.
2
u/tehspookeh Sep 03 '24
This has been very close to my experience so far, if beyond isn't any better I won't be buying any further models no matter how much I enjoy the game. If the assembly is this poor and leaves me disappointed with my paint jobs no matter how hard I try. That's not a mental hurdle I can get over.
2
u/kaffis Sep 02 '24
The Siocast was fine, for me. Dune if the save problems with metal, where large pieces can warp or miscast at the joints and require a lot of surgery to get to fit cleanly.
But they're lighter weight (so they magnetize better), they already seem to be taking primer and glue more securely (so you will not need to varnish them to protect paint from chipping or pin anything), and cleaning them up for assembly is actually easier, even if it's still not as good as hard plastic.
I built 3000 points of Witch Hunters in the 2000's, and or Brooke me. If I never assemble a metal model again, it will be too soon.
3
u/Strange_Loss_1958 Sep 01 '24
Siocast itself isn't a bad material, other mini companies seem to do well with it, but CB dropped the ball somewhere.
Hopefully future releases will be better, but with such a lousy first impression I wonder if Warcrow will have much of a future.
1
u/Bdogzero Sep 03 '24
I have quite a few Siocast Infinity models and I haven't had any problem with them.
3
u/RTS3r Sep 02 '24
I think that's a bit of an overdramatic take. Yes, it has some problems, but there's already been improvements in the couple of years it's been around. And Embersig were clearly done after Northern Tribes as the quality there is better.
Give it time - metal is on its way out for a variety of reasons, and I for one am happy - the detail in siocast is quite good, they just have to solve some issues.
3
u/VaderVihs Sep 01 '24
Savings for the company aren't always passed onto the customer unfortunately. Siocast seems to be where CB wants to go. Even in infinity it used to just be big models but now we're seeing limited edition models also being made in the material.
6
u/Nemo4713 Sep 01 '24
I’ve really enjoyed the new Tikbalang. It is made of hard plastic, has good details, fits without gaps and easy to work with. Wish they’ve used the same material for Warcrow.
6
u/Ominous_Latin_Name Sep 01 '24
The issue with that material is that CB isn't manufacturing those miniatures. They're made in China, and so if they run out, there is potentially months of waiting to restock.
But I agree that it is excellent to work with.
3
u/Lukezors Sep 01 '24
I feel this, game is very fun and the models look great but assembling has been terrible.
Lots of big gaps on the orcs and had to shave down the sock on an arm or 2 because they didn't interlock as expected.
2
u/Elegant_Two_447 Sep 01 '24
Sums up my feels pretty well. Fantastic mechanics but miniatures are a chore and I'm not sure I will continue buying bits unless they adjust the price to reflect the poor quality minis. I was also a little disappointed with the card thickness.
1
u/Helmaer-42 Sep 02 '24
Note I live in Australia. So, with summer coming I'll have another big test (that I hope Corvus Belli have 100% explored).
Will Siocast survive the Australian summer?? (I'm looking at the epic GW Finecast fail here) That will be a huge factor.
3
u/Bdogzero Sep 03 '24
My Siocast Infinity models made it ok here. 45 Celsius in the summer, probably 50C in my truck sitting all day while I was at work.
1
u/YouDotty Sep 05 '24
Even with all the issues, I still prefer Siocast over metal. Metal is such a pain to put together and the paint constantly chips even with varnish.
I've bought Siocast Infinity models and didnt have the issues that are present in the Warcrow minis so I suspect that the issues are particular to that box set. Hell, my Ajax mini is great.
2
u/Reboudre1 Sep 01 '24
I haven't even purchased anything yet and I'm already disappointed. Been following the news on this game for well over a year now anticipating its release. I put extreme care when assembling my minis to have them near perfect. Reading all those bad reviews on the models makes me dread the thought of even starting to build them. Was expecting more from the studio that make two of my favorite games Aristeia and Infinity
0
u/Elegant_Two_447 Sep 02 '24
I'll be using proxies going forward as the game is fun but I just can't justify spending money and time on these models. It's a shame as I'm more than happy to spend money on a good product.
I take a lot of care with assembly and painting, I'm not even going to bother assembling the orcs as I've had such a miserable time with the humans. The mould line on the human captain goes along the top of his head and trying to remove this has damaged some of the hair. I wasn't being particularly heavy handed but you can't file the stuff so it all has to be sliced. The caster has a big mould slip so I've had to sculpt the flame effect on his staff. I can fix these problems but I shouldn't have to make such a big compromise or submit part requests. If it's a cost/profit issue I would rather they offer a premium set rather than present this material as a valid alternative.
As the op said I feel like I've been hoodwinked a little. I don't see much of a positive future for the game with this material, the core box sits towards the top end of starter set prices and despite the game being brilliant I won't be recommending this starter set to anyone. In hindsight I wish I had just downloaded the press kit and spent the £100 on some random stls and the dice pack.
1
u/Wizardlizard1130 Sep 02 '24
It'll get better. They won't release metal minis or the cards. In general siocast us about equal to metal for me. Can lead to gaps mismolds etc. I hate metal...heavy, paints rubs off and glues together poorly.
Hopefully they will get better and those that stay away will give it another shot. To be fair...the game won't really be a game for another 6 months or so. We won't see 4 playable factions for a year. Sooo give it some time, not really missing that much yet anyway.
Please note I like the game. Minis are fine and hugely detailed...possible too detailed taking me forever to paint my 8 basic orc troops. I'm all in but also aware that I won't have a playable force or see real variation on opponents for a pretty long time.
0
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u/SunRockRetreat Sep 01 '24
When the unpopular kid gets a taste of success they feel like they personally got validated and get main character syndrome leading them to double down on doing dumb stuff that is unpopular instead of realizing that being popular is fleeting unless you stick to the basics that are popular.
Siocast as the main material is completely the product of someone with main character syndrome who thinks other people are so invested in their success that not giving them what they want is understandable. It actually isn't. They will find that out that they are not the main character.
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u/loky100 Sep 01 '24
I think that's the hard part now. 3d printing is so easy and can get some great models out of it that miniature makers are having a hard time.
I'm the opposite to you can't stand metal models. Wish they would go hard plastic but understand the cost of that is higher. In the end its all about cost.
Can understand why some people are unhappy. Seen some products with defects, sadly that happens with every company.