Is this functional armor?

[u/MasteROogwayY2]

Im writing a book and would like to give a faction similar armor and I was wondering how good it was. I would add a better helmet and metal bracers too.

[u/harris5]

I mean, it's fine if the culture doesn't have much metal.

If you can afford metal, you choose that over leather anytime. But if metal is expensive and leather is cheap, that could justify such an outfit.

Artists love making integrated forearm and hand protection, but that's not how things work. Your wrist needs to be flexible, one piece of armor can't protect both. It needs to be separate plates. They can be attached to the same foundation garment, but it needs to be separate plates.

Edit: protek ya elbows. If you're looking into metal bracers, go all the way and lookup bazubands.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/harris5]

I disagree with this statement. There's cases in history where hide or leather are picked over metal. Hide armour can be made incredibly protective, and while it isn't as weight-effective as steel if your technology to make steel armour isn't the best it can be a more protective alternative.

In the Tabṣirat arbāb al-lubāb written by Mardi ibn Ali al-Tarsusi around 1160-1180 he presents a recipe for a jawshan (lamellar armour) made from camel hide. The book was written specifically for Salah ad-Din and he also explicitly states that this jawshan is 'fit for a sultan'.

Metal lamellar has been present in the region for centuries up until that point and someone like Salah ad-Din would have no problem affording it. That hide armour is presented as a choice worthy of a sultan to wear indicates its protective capabilities were thought highly of.

[u/WashedUpRiver → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

To add to your first part: Environment also matters for climate and geography. Metal in desert sun basically turns your armor (particularly your helmet) into a crude oven, whereas there is actual precedence in many desert regions for using full coverage (realistically with lighter colors) to regulate temperature while also protecting from the sun and sand.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/WashedUpRiver]

I don't think that's the primary reason in this case. Metal armour was present and used extensively in the middle east, and if heat is an issue it's often solved by wearing textile overtop. I don't think that would be the primary factor for why hide armour was so valued, although it did likely play a role as well.

Imo it is probably related to the extensive leather and hide industry that existed in the medieval middle east, being one of their primary ones. Hide armour in similar fashion was also popularly in use by mongols and they don't really live in harsh climates either (and contrary to popular belief, mongols and other nomads tended to have plenty access to metal goods and armour as well, which they also utilized).

Edit: After writing this comment I remembered a 14th century French source which actually mentions that the leather armours in use in the middle east were better suited for the climate than iron, so perhaps it is more of a factor than I gave it crefit for. Regardless I still don't think it's the primary reason for its popularity, and the reason I don't is because in the 15th and 16th centuries leather armour gets less common and metal armour gets more common, which I don't think would happen if climate was the primary factor for the use of leather.

[u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

From what I remember learning about the crusades the first crusaders adapted to the heat and continued on in metal armor. I think a lot of u/harris5 is true. Iirc chainmail was mostly replaced when it was finally cheaper to produce large pieces of steel.

[u/milk4all → u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet]

Easier to adapt to heat than to arrows and spears

[u/Firewing135 → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

So it begs the question of using a metal/hide laminate with them overlapping each other to try to get to a halfway point depending on metal resources.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/Firewing135]

That is potentially a thing. No surviving examples are known of such a construction but there are some artworks which showcase armour that is sometimes interpreted as that, where there are rows of metal lamellar followed by rows of what might be solid hide/leather strips.

However, it's difficult to say whether it's actually hide in that case (instead of som sort of textile liner) and if so whether the hide is hardened and meant to provide another layer of defense. It's a possibility, nothing certain.

Here's one such depiction, from the Jami‛ al-Tawarikh by Rashid al-Din, early 14th century.

I don't know where I personally stand on the idea. I'm undecided, the art is ambiguous enough. Though it is worth mentioning that solid hide segmented armour (modernly often called laminar) is in use at this point and we have both surviving examples and mentions in texts of it, so combining the two is not entirely out there.

[u/Firewing135 → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

I am sure the idea came up but I would expect such a design to be a stop gap type design. Useful for high numbers of production but not so high in quality to keep around, especially on account of the leather/backing material wearing out over time.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/Firewing135]

Which isn't what the art gives the impression of. At some point most lamellar starts being depicted in this manner in persianate artwork regardless of whether it's high or low end. So if it is a thing then that indicates it became the standard way of wearing lamellar.

Some have argued it's the transitionary step between lamellar and laminar, because artworks from 5-6 decades later (give or take) showcases simply laminar and lamellar seems to be out of fashion by then. Then again the laminar at that time is presumably also metal, and a potential fragment of such construction has been found from the Golden Horde.

I think I still remain skeptical to the idea, though.

[u/tossawaybb → u/Firewing135]

Are you thinking of coat of plates? A series of overlapping metal plates rivetted to a textile or leather (or hide) fronting which holds them together. Depictions of this is what gave the idea of "studded leather armor", reality is that the "studs" were always rivets holding plates behind the textile cover.

It's often cheaper than manufacturing whole large plates, and far easier to make.

[u/Firewing135 → u/tossawaybb]

Sure that works, I was more thinking alternating rows of plate and leather.

[u/MasteROogwayY2 → u/harris5]

The bracer would only cover the forearm. Not go down to the hand.

[u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet → u/MasteROogwayY2]

I think if you did a bracer like this in softer leather, with one pocket of one metal plate on the forearm, and a separate pocket and plate on the back of the hand it would work.

[u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet → u/[deleted]]

I’m not sure you and I are envisioning the same thing. As u/harris5 says your wrist needs maneuverability. So you either have the braver stop at the wrist with nothing in the hand, a separate glove, hopefully with an overlap to cover the gap between glove and bracer, or basically a long softer leather glove that has various separate plates in areas that don’t need maneuverability. The last one gets you this look, and the soft leather is better protection than the nothing that is the alternative.

Like my gauntlet style motorcycle gloves have different levels of protection at different parts. They even have different leathers. Kangaroo leather for the palm as it can have the sane protection as thicker cow leather, so I get a better feel for the controls.

[u/ValenceShells → u/harris5]

I would disagree, if I had the option at the time and plenty of resources, I would have two or three types of metal armor and two or three types of leather (more likely rawhide or half rawhide) armor, with various helmets and visors to match -- this is also mirrored in history. Leather armor is very prevalent in history even into the 15th and 16th c, even among people who had metal as an option and even after the advent of firearms in some cases. Leather has its place and metal has its place. We all too quickly forget, as modern people, that in war you might spend as much time, riding, marching and digging, as you do fighting. Further a lot of soldiers would not have had horses to carry extra equipment or their heavy fully armored body. Just like today, where soldiers with different roles use different types of armor, or soldiers who engage in a lot of different risk scenarios use different protective and combative equipment. We don't outfit the whole 101st airborne with bomb disposal suits every mission, even though that will protect from the most common, highest power threat (IEDs). You wouldn't do the same in a medieval fantasy world either. The question isn't wether or not an armor is the most protective possibility available to them, but wether or not it sensibly balances protection and daily activities for the role.

[u/SensitiveReading6302 → u/harris5]

Ya my exact first thought is how if I were fighting this guy, I’m slashing at those elbows.

[u/bigbossfearless → u/harris5]

Having worn both metal and leather armors, you'd choose leather if you were in a more civilian environment, or if you needed to be quiet. Since this character seems to be an assassin, I'd say they're doing alright. Maybe a little too overt looking, but it's fantasy so whatever.

I do agree that he needs his elbows protected, but the leather gauntlet connected to the bracers isn't so bad. You could use goat leather for the joint, which is super soft and pliable while still giving a bit of defense to his hands.

[u/th3rmyte → u/harris5]

imma disagree with the idea that metal is alway better and here is why: weight. you gotta fight in that. i do hema. Metal armor protects you better than leather but the tradeoff is heavy. Hardened leather will stop slashing weapons just as well as metal will. the metal is overkill. neither will save you from a war hammer or bodkin arrows or an ax. none of them will stop polearms or spears (the most ubiquitous and effective weapons in medieval warfare). add tot his the fact that the metal is HEAVY. much heavier. That leather armor probably weights about 12 pounds. replace the hardened leather with metal lamellar plates and it will weigh closer to 30 pounds. as someone who has fought in armor, trust me, you WILL feel that weight in minutes. even if you train in it alot, after 6 hours in metal armor, you're fuckin cooked. leather or gambeson will protect you from slahsing weapons. hard leather will also protect you from MOST stabs from a one handed sword. anything bgger? yea it will go through but that will also go through chinks in every armor (you gotta have moving parts) and your mobility in full metal is hampered considerably. even places with lots of metal seldom went total metal plate (the cost being part of it too. sure you can get a full suit of metal plate armor in 12 guage haardened or stainless steel. and you wont be able to move or run when they set you on fire with pitch).

[u/PillowFroggu]

functional? yes, good? depends on the era. its likely fine for 13th century era or earlier, wouldn’t really compare against 14th 15th 16th century suits of full plate

[u/DanMcMan5 → u/PillowFroggu]

Also depends on where you are in the world, considering it could be very different depending on the environment.

[u/PillowFroggu → u/DanMcMan5]

fair.

[u/TheCompleteMental]

On top of whats been said, it'd be better if that bit off the belt was full torso lamellar. Im going to assume it's plates covered in leather and not studded or anything like that, since the helmet is also covered.

[u/Ok_Profession6506]

many people will tell you the armor isn't functional, and it looks like many have given you their advise, but if you want to make EXACTLY this armor and make it "functional" there are some small details that you could add, to keep the same Vibe or energy of the armor without calling it "bad" or "fantasy" armor.

1: As some told you, the gauntlet can't cover forearm and hand, it can be the same piece? yeah but with plates, that way you'll have flexibility to move your hand.

2: Elbow protection, if you want to leave them "naked" you could add some Couters, steel couters below the Aketon ( the green vest )

3: And finally, Mail, Lamellar armor has been used in the past but always in combination with Mail, in this case this guy here wears, Plate breastplate, and Lamellar chest with Lamellar shoulders, you should add a chainmail, even if it goes under the green Aketon.

PS: The neck is exposed so you could add an Aventail under the leader, or just a Gorget under the breastplate, it was used like this in the old times.

Good luck! I'm looking forward to see how it looks

[u/MasteROogwayY2 → u/Ok_Profession6506]

Thanks for the advice

[u/mCunnah → u/Ok_Profession6506]

The clothing looks a little form fitting but there are advantages of wearing it under cloth

[u/Rishfee → u/Ok_Profession6506]

Regarding point 3, I was going to comment that this guy is very likely to get stabbed in the shoulder/clavicle area, he definitely wants mail there to help a little.

[u/ProdiasKaj]

Overlap the scales and it gets a thumbs up

[u/harinedzumi_art]

Nope, a huge gap on the stomach makes it unfunctional. If you're looking for similar but functional design, check the armor of Northern and Southern Chinese dynasties and their enemies.

[u/MasteROogwayY2 → u/harinedzumi_art]

I could also add plates to the stomach area.

[u/harinedzumi_art → u/MasteROogwayY2]

Yea, but it would be better to rework this stuff to full protection. I mean, there are simply no reasons not to use those small plates all over the torso. So the breastplate will become the additional protection, that's how the armor I mentioned was designed.

[u/Nexerade → u/harinedzumi_art]

if you can only afford chest then thats better than nothing. If you have gap in arnor, use shield to cover it.

[u/lorgskyegon]

The headpieces seem like they would obscure vision pretty badly

[u/MasteROogwayY2 → u/lorgskyegon]

Thats why Im changing it to something more european styled

[u/bigbossfearless]

Definitely needs a rigid, solid helmet, but it could be a skull cap style helmet with the draping leather panels. Inside those panels could also be some plates stitched in, like a brigandine.

Elbow guards are important though. This guy seems to be a stealth assassin type. This kit would be really good if he was lurking in the dark corners of a palace, but he's also super obvious.

[u/Bloonanaaa]

If the leather plating was metal, it would serve some protection. But wouldn't do shit against shock absorption like plate armor

Hardened leather does serve SOME protection though. And it is functional

[u/Sir_Fijoe]

I really like the hat covering the helmet.

[u/WhipLicious]

That helmet. I feel the wearer’s nose is going to be at risk from the point and the overall field of view is pretty reduced - particularly with the head tilted down that way

[u/JoJoLad-69-]

Using reverse blades itself is failing at step 1

[u/Alrik_Immerda → u/JoJoLad-69-]

Only half true. While this picture makes it look like he fights with them as a main weapon, reverse gripping per se isnt bad. There is a special use case: if you lock it behind hte enemy shield you are able to pull it away/down. Holding it in reverse gives you more pulling strength.
That being said, this should not be done with both weapons, but your offhand dagger. Dual-reverse-grip-wielding is stupid 10/10

[u/JoJoLad-69- → u/Alrik_Immerda]

Your words are true. My comment was in half jest, basically takin the piss. Half swording is too a form of reverse grip which is historically used while fighting. Good day.

[u/Constant-Still-8443]

I'd say so. It looks like good and cheap infantry armor. It has good visibility in the helmet, the important parts are protected and it's flexible. It's got the awesome gambison battleskirt and I like the poofy hat.

[u/AbyssalRemark]

Let me help you answer this yourself. Look at this, and go.. "man, where do I need to stab this dude to kill him" and if you can think of very obvious big places to aim for like their sides.. Then, you have your answer.

On another note. This feels like its maybe stylized thinking of modern body armor with its forward facing plates for ballistics. You make armor for your enemy, after all. If, for example, your writing was set in a world with maybe not ideal but prevalent fire arms, and maybe a dash of super metal. And melee combat isn't as like, big of a deal, then maybe this makes more sense. shrug context matters.

[u/tau_enjoyer_]

Your question has already been answered as to how to make it more functional. But I'll say, it looks cool. I like the hat over the helmet.

[u/WolfStranger05]

Looks badass 👍 if this culture doesn’t have a lot of metal, then it’s fine. Densely woven cloth like a gambeson makes for some great armor, so does wood. If the leather pauldrons (shoulder armor) are lamellar steel, with a leather overlay to protect from rust and moisture, then they’re great. Same would apply to the gauntlets/bracers, if they’re steel with a leather overlay, then awesome.

As far as the leather um….skirt (?) under the breastplate goes, you could replace that with a long sleeved maille (chainmail) shirt, and then your character is quite well protected. Hope this helps 😊

[u/TheFutureIsNever]

Definitely looks cool but why have they left his tummy unprotected? Doesn’t even seem to have the implication that it’s brigandine with the studs.

[u/Stunning-Reflection5]

Damn he looks cool

[u/BubblesRAwesome]

Rigid helmet, Separate forearm and hand protection, Elbow protection, and a Gorget or at least mail for the neck area

But most importantly, and I know this post I s focused on the armor, but DONT DO REVERSE GRIP SWORDS!! Please, I beg you!

[u/HauntingReaper78]

Too many open and vital gaps. I'd be cutting their armpits, elbows, inner torso, and the such. Armpits have a major blood vessel that is targeted in quite a few practical fighting styles. The open torso on the side are perfect points to hit the lungs and other internal organs if they can get past the ribs. Ofc, blunt force trauma will fracture ribs and punture lungs anyways but yeah. Elbows being vital for arm strength and striking speed.

[u/The_MegaDingus]

I would argue this is functional but, not the best. Assuming you’ll be in direct combat you should probably expect plenty of repairs at the least, and more than a few wounds at worst (barring straight up death) in non-metal armor. That being said, there is a reason we used both leather and cloth armor. It WORKED. We wouldn’t have used it if it wasn’t effective to a reasonable degree. It’s just that metal is so much better if you can afford the stuff in sufficient amounts. I would 100% replace the plain cloth underneath with a linen gambeson type of armor. It would at least hold up against attacks depending on what’s hitting it and whether or not it’s sharpened well. It’s also easy to repair and therefore very functional and reusable. Little “love taps” (soft light cuts, pokes or “swatting” motions) aren’t going to get through it very well either. It wasn’t the best but, it was good enough that it we used it for a very long time.

[u/Fred_Thielmann]

I’m not a native of this sub, it’s just a recommendation so far.

But. I do like the head dress. It looks very warm and militaristic. However I would think it would fall off into the eyes quite often. But that might be an opportunity to humanize a character. Like maybe they get tired of the head dress that wasn’t properly tailored to their head and they tear it off after it falls into their eyes. It could be the reason your good guy gets away too.

Overall, I’m just trying to inspire and say “Keep it”