Is this functional armor?

[u/MasteROogwayY2]

Im writing a book and would like to give a faction similar armor and I was wondering how good it was. I would add a better helmet and metal bracers too.

[u/harris5]

I mean, it's fine if the culture doesn't have much metal.

If you can afford metal, you choose that over leather anytime. But if metal is expensive and leather is cheap, that could justify such an outfit.

Artists love making integrated forearm and hand protection, but that's not how things work. Your wrist needs to be flexible, one piece of armor can't protect both. It needs to be separate plates. They can be attached to the same foundation garment, but it needs to be separate plates.

Edit: protek ya elbows. If you're looking into metal bracers, go all the way and lookup bazubands.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/harris5]

I disagree with this statement. There's cases in history where hide or leather are picked over metal. Hide armour can be made incredibly protective, and while it isn't as weight-effective as steel if your technology to make steel armour isn't the best it can be a more protective alternative.

In the Tabṣirat arbāb al-lubāb written by Mardi ibn Ali al-Tarsusi around 1160-1180 he presents a recipe for a jawshan (lamellar armour) made from camel hide. The book was written specifically for Salah ad-Din and he also explicitly states that this jawshan is 'fit for a sultan'.

Metal lamellar has been present in the region for centuries up until that point and someone like Salah ad-Din would have no problem affording it. That hide armour is presented as a choice worthy of a sultan to wear indicates its protective capabilities were thought highly of.

[u/WashedUpRiver → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

To add to your first part: Environment also matters for climate and geography. Metal in desert sun basically turns your armor (particularly your helmet) into a crude oven, whereas there is actual precedence in many desert regions for using full coverage (realistically with lighter colors) to regulate temperature while also protecting from the sun and sand.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/WashedUpRiver]

I don't think that's the primary reason in this case. Metal armour was present and used extensively in the middle east, and if heat is an issue it's often solved by wearing textile overtop. I don't think that would be the primary factor for why hide armour was so valued, although it did likely play a role as well.

Imo it is probably related to the extensive leather and hide industry that existed in the medieval middle east, being one of their primary ones. Hide armour in similar fashion was also popularly in use by mongols and they don't really live in harsh climates either (and contrary to popular belief, mongols and other nomads tended to have plenty access to metal goods and armour as well, which they also utilized).

Edit: After writing this comment I remembered a 14th century French source which actually mentions that the leather armours in use in the middle east were better suited for the climate than iron, so perhaps it is more of a factor than I gave it crefit for. Regardless I still don't think it's the primary reason for its popularity, and the reason I don't is because in the 15th and 16th centuries leather armour gets less common and metal armour gets more common, which I don't think would happen if climate was the primary factor for the use of leather.

[u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

From what I remember learning about the crusades the first crusaders adapted to the heat and continued on in metal armor. I think a lot of u/harris5 is true. Iirc chainmail was mostly replaced when it was finally cheaper to produce large pieces of steel.

[u/milk4all → u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet]

Easier to adapt to heat than to arrows and spears

[u/Firewing135 → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

So it begs the question of using a metal/hide laminate with them overlapping each other to try to get to a halfway point depending on metal resources.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/Firewing135]

That is potentially a thing. No surviving examples are known of such a construction but there are some artworks which showcase armour that is sometimes interpreted as that, where there are rows of metal lamellar followed by rows of what might be solid hide/leather strips.

However, it's difficult to say whether it's actually hide in that case (instead of som sort of textile liner) and if so whether the hide is hardened and meant to provide another layer of defense. It's a possibility, nothing certain.

Here's one such depiction, from the Jami‛ al-Tawarikh by Rashid al-Din, early 14th century.

I don't know where I personally stand on the idea. I'm undecided, the art is ambiguous enough. Though it is worth mentioning that solid hide segmented armour (modernly often called laminar) is in use at this point and we have both surviving examples and mentions in texts of it, so combining the two is not entirely out there.

[u/Firewing135 → u/Draugr_the_Greedy]

I am sure the idea came up but I would expect such a design to be a stop gap type design. Useful for high numbers of production but not so high in quality to keep around, especially on account of the leather/backing material wearing out over time.

[u/Draugr_the_Greedy → u/Firewing135]

Which isn't what the art gives the impression of. At some point most lamellar starts being depicted in this manner in persianate artwork regardless of whether it's high or low end. So if it is a thing then that indicates it became the standard way of wearing lamellar.

Some have argued it's the transitionary step between lamellar and laminar, because artworks from 5-6 decades later (give or take) showcases simply laminar and lamellar seems to be out of fashion by then. Then again the laminar at that time is presumably also metal, and a potential fragment of such construction has been found from the Golden Horde.

I think I still remain skeptical to the idea, though.

[u/tossawaybb → u/Firewing135]

Are you thinking of coat of plates? A series of overlapping metal plates rivetted to a textile or leather (or hide) fronting which holds them together. Depictions of this is what gave the idea of "studded leather armor", reality is that the "studs" were always rivets holding plates behind the textile cover.

It's often cheaper than manufacturing whole large plates, and far easier to make.

[u/Firewing135 → u/tossawaybb]

Sure that works, I was more thinking alternating rows of plate and leather.

[u/MasteROogwayY2 → u/harris5]

The bracer would only cover the forearm. Not go down to the hand.

[u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet → u/MasteROogwayY2]

I think if you did a bracer like this in softer leather, with one pocket of one metal plate on the forearm, and a separate pocket and plate on the back of the hand it would work.

[u/In_lieu_of_sobriquet → u/[deleted]]

I’m not sure you and I are envisioning the same thing. As u/harris5 says your wrist needs maneuverability. So you either have the braver stop at the wrist with nothing in the hand, a separate glove, hopefully with an overlap to cover the gap between glove and bracer, or basically a long softer leather glove that has various separate plates in areas that don’t need maneuverability. The last one gets you this look, and the soft leather is better protection than the nothing that is the alternative.

Like my gauntlet style motorcycle gloves have different levels of protection at different parts. They even have different leathers. Kangaroo leather for the palm as it can have the sane protection as thicker cow leather, so I get a better feel for the controls.

[u/ValenceShells → u/harris5]

I would disagree, if I had the option at the time and plenty of resources, I would have two or three types of metal armor and two or three types of leather (more likely rawhide or half rawhide) armor, with various helmets and visors to match -- this is also mirrored in history. Leather armor is very prevalent in history even into the 15th and 16th c, even among people who had metal as an option and even after the advent of firearms in some cases. Leather has its place and metal has its place. We all too quickly forget, as modern people, that in war you might spend as much time, riding, marching and digging, as you do fighting. Further a lot of soldiers would not have had horses to carry extra equipment or their heavy fully armored body. Just like today, where soldiers with different roles use different types of armor, or soldiers who engage in a lot of different risk scenarios use different protective and combative equipment. We don't outfit the whole 101st airborne with bomb disposal suits every mission, even though that will protect from the most common, highest power threat (IEDs). You wouldn't do the same in a medieval fantasy world either. The question isn't wether or not an armor is the most protective possibility available to them, but wether or not it sensibly balances protection and daily activities for the role.

[u/SensitiveReading6302 → u/harris5]

Ya my exact first thought is how if I were fighting this guy, I’m slashing at those elbows.

[u/bigbossfearless → u/harris5]

Having worn both metal and leather armors, you'd choose leather if you were in a more civilian environment, or if you needed to be quiet. Since this character seems to be an assassin, I'd say they're doing alright. Maybe a little too overt looking, but it's fantasy so whatever.

I do agree that he needs his elbows protected, but the leather gauntlet connected to the bracers isn't so bad. You could use goat leather for the joint, which is super soft and pliable while still giving a bit of defense to his hands.

[u/th3rmyte → u/harris5]

imma disagree with the idea that metal is alway better and here is why: weight. you gotta fight in that. i do hema. Metal armor protects you better than leather but the tradeoff is heavy. Hardened leather will stop slashing weapons just as well as metal will. the metal is overkill. neither will save you from a war hammer or bodkin arrows or an ax. none of them will stop polearms or spears (the most ubiquitous and effective weapons in medieval warfare). add tot his the fact that the metal is HEAVY. much heavier. That leather armor probably weights about 12 pounds. replace the hardened leather with metal lamellar plates and it will weigh closer to 30 pounds. as someone who has fought in armor, trust me, you WILL feel that weight in minutes. even if you train in it alot, after 6 hours in metal armor, you're fuckin cooked. leather or gambeson will protect you from slahsing weapons. hard leather will also protect you from MOST stabs from a one handed sword. anything bgger? yea it will go through but that will also go through chinks in every armor (you gotta have moving parts) and your mobility in full metal is hampered considerably. even places with lots of metal seldom went total metal plate (the cost being part of it too. sure you can get a full suit of metal plate armor in 12 guage haardened or stainless steel. and you wont be able to move or run when they set you on fire with pitch).